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James Woodcock Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 21 September 2007 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 8652
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| Posted: 04 September 2026 at 4:17am | IP Logged | 1
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AI can be a powerful assist. For example, I use copilot to reformat work in office. I like to hand sketch out Gantt charts and then plot them in excel (I’m not great with project, but love excel - pivot tables are a thing of beauty). I can now import an image of my sketch and get copilot to create my Gantt from my sketch. Saves so much time.
A recent post from Wendy Pini got me thinking. She posted an AI picture of a dragon. She talked about the ethics but admitted she found the dragon itself beautiful.
I started thinking and asked the following, which I would like people’s opinions on. The Pinis have tried for decades to get an animated Elfquest cartoon made. No one is prepared to make one. Could the Pinis themselves make a generative AI version and it be classed as ethical?
As no one will ever make an Elfquest movie, no one is losing a job - there are and never will be a job for an animator to illustrate an Elfquest movie. The Pinis own the IP lock, stock and barrel. Clearly, anyone else doing this would be wrong. But would it be wrong for the Pinis to do this?
And then there would be the opening of the floodgates once done. Again, if the IP is owned by an individual, and the animation is controlled by that individual, in a situation where we know there is no commercial venture that will produce a faithful product, would this be wrong?
I’m obviously not talking about corporations such as Marvel or DC in this instance.
Edited by James Woodcock on 04 September 2026 at 4:20am
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Michael Roberts Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 20 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 14946
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| Posted: 04 September 2026 at 4:52am | IP Logged | 2
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QUOTE:
| Could the Pinis themselves make a generative AI version and it be classed as ethical? |
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No.
QUOTE:
| As no one will ever make an Elfquest movie, no one is losing a job - there are and never will be a job for an animator to illustrate an Elfquest movie. The Pinis own the IP lock, stock and barrel. Clearly, anyone else doing this would be wrong. But would it be wrong for the Pinis to do this? |
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Yes.
The issue is not the Elfquest IP. The issue is that any model capable of making an Elfquest movie would require training from data that is not owned by the Pinis.
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James Woodcock Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 21 September 2007 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 8652
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| Posted: 04 September 2026 at 5:36am | IP Logged | 3
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Very good point
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Darren Taylor Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 22 April 2004 Location: Scotland Posts: 6095
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| Posted: 04 September 2026 at 6:38am | IP Logged | 4
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"...would require training from data that is not owned by the Pinis. "
And 85% of this crime has already happened. Past tense.
These now Trillion dollar companies are working on the premise that is better to ask for forgiveness rather than fight for permission.
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Vinny Valenti Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 17 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 8680
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| Posted: 04 September 2026 at 1:29pm | IP Logged | 5
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The simple solution to all this is to enforce that any AI-generated work cannot be copyrighted, since no human was actually involved in its creation. The problem would largely solve itself if nodody can profit from AI-generated "art".
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 137012
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| Posted: 04 September 2026 at 2:02pm | IP Logged | 6
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Have we really reached a point where AI functions completely without human input? Doesn’t it still need to be “prompted”?Since I started doing computer modeling I have often been frustrated by those people who assumed all I did was type “1975 Batmobile” and let the computer do the rest. Not the case, tho AI seems genuinely to have reached that point. But it still needs someone to knock over that first domino.
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Darren Taylor Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 22 April 2004 Location: Scotland Posts: 6095
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| Posted: 04 September 2026 at 2:22pm | IP Logged | 7
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I'm with you Vinny as far as 'cannot be copyrighted'. Simply from the naturally derivative reality of the LLM's 'scraping' model of learning.
But I veer away from the "No human" element, since a lot of what it regurgitates was made by some very talented humans. It stands blindfolded on their shoulders. Some lessons that may have taken a lifetime now repackaged in a few seconds. The horrific part is depending on the competency of the prompter, these lessons go past unnoticed by both the AI system and also the prompter.
Whatever you think about "prompting" it is also something that is a point of potential human interjection, although it is something that can be incrementally relinquished more and more to AI agents.
Corporations claim it is too difficult to repay the individual artists that have been robbed, mostly because they have no interest in the massive amount of work that would be required in order to find everyone.
So now you are seeing other corporations, mostly from the music space coming after billions here and there for infringment.
It'll take some time, but I'm sure the law will eventually catch-up.
Ethics seem to have been the baby in this particular bathwater.
As amazingly complex as it seems, it still just a rule following echo chamber. Nowhere even remotely near 'thinking'. It is closer to a gambling app than thinking! In-so-much that it predicts the anticipated result.
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Peter Martin Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 17 March 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 16537
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| Posted: 04 September 2026 at 2:49pm | IP Logged | 8
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QUOTE:
| Have we really reached a point where AI functions completely without human input? Doesn’t it still need to be “prompted”? |
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The way it is currently set up, you use a prompt and that starts the process. However, if you don't care about the specifics of the outcome, that prompt can be very sparse.
For example, 1975 Batmobile would indeed give you a quality image.
At the same time, I'm confident they could set it up to go hallucinate by itself and no prompt would be needed.
The frustrating aspect to the whole thing is that if you do care about the specifics and provide a very detailed prompt, the less likely you are to get a satisfactory outcome.
A little will go a long way with AI. And of course you could tell the AI to write your prompt for you anyway. Tell the AI to write you a story. Then tell the AI to break it down into 10 second clips. Then ask for the prompts for those clips. The real legwork is then in policing the temporal inconsistencies between the clips; something that currently AI is terrible for at the retail level, as the companies hide the seeds that guide the stochastic process.
Edited by Peter Martin on 04 September 2026 at 2:50pm
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Robin Taylor Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 1392
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| Posted: 04 September 2026 at 2:52pm | IP Logged | 9
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It's impossible to ethically use AI. The power costs, the impact on the environment, the water use are all unacceptable. This is before AI is trained on plagiarized material.
The thing that will kill AI is when they finally start charging what prompts actually cost to produce.
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Evan S. Kurtz Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 04 July 2022 Location: Canada Posts: 410
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| Posted: 04 September 2026 at 3:21pm | IP Logged | 10
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“The issue is not the Elfquest IP. The issue is that any model capable of making an Elfquest movie would require training from data that is not owned by the Pinis.”
I don’t think this is a winning argument, even though it’s a popular one. I’d ask you to point us to any artist, in any artistic genre - music, writing, acting, drawing, anything - living or dead, who didn’t learn their trade from “training with data that is not owned” by them.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 137012
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| Posted: 04 September 2026 at 3:34pm | IP Logged | 11
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I'm confident they could set it up to go hallucinate by itself and no prompt would be needed.••• Still needs someone to knock over the first domino, however small that influence might be.
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Scott Gray Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 August 2012 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 96
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| Posted: 04 September 2026 at 4:08pm | IP Logged | 12
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Evan S Kurtz wrote: I don’t think this is a winning argument, even though it’s a popular one. I’d ask you to point us to any artist, in any artistic genre - music, writing, acting, drawing, anything - living or dead, who didn’t learn their trade from “training with data that is not owned” by them.
*******
Your response is a very popular one for generative AI fans, but it's a false equivalence. Human beings don't data-scrape millions of images and books and regurgitate them mechanically. Generative AI isn't conscious: it's a jumped-up photocopier.
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