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Stéphane Garrelie
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 August 2005
Location: France
Posts: 4252
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| Posted: 03 March 2007 at 11:22am | IP Logged | 1
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Hour and a alf is very impressive for such a page. Very nice work.
"Kirby=8 pages a day".
But that was before the mid-60s, right? Pages like the ones of the early issues of the FF with no much details.... ?
I can hardly imagine 8 pages of his late 60s or 70s/early80s work done in only one day. Or then it would be awasomely impressive.
Edited by Stéphane Garrelie on 03 March 2007 at 11:22am
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Aaron Smith
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Joined: 06 September 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 10461
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| Posted: 03 March 2007 at 11:27am | IP Logged | 2
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It's quite amazing that the three men who have been 3 of my 5 favorite artists for the whole time I've been reading comics have such incredible consistency and speed, while so many artists of lesser caliber are so damn slow. I suppose it's a combination of great talent and a hard-work ethic. Of course I'm referring to JB, Kirby, and Kubert.
I wonder what the average speed of my other 2 favorite artists is. That would be Neal Adams and Gene Colan.
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James Hanson
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Joined: 14 February 2006
Posts: 2396
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| Posted: 03 March 2007 at 11:31am | IP Logged | 3
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One might suggest that a hard work ethic creates the greater skill, Aaron. After all, the more you draw, the better you get.
What is the industry standard, BTW? I have always thought a page a day was average.
Also, what of more photo-realistic styles like Hitch or Hughes? Would that take a bit more time than a Kirby or Kubert, who tend to draw "out of their head"? (I assume).
Is the late artist syndrome really that prevalent in the industry amongst the regular artists? I usually associate it with "Superstars" like Jim Lee or Bryan Hitch.
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Paulo Pereira
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Joined: 24 April 2006
Posts: 15539
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| Posted: 03 March 2007 at 11:33am | IP Logged | 4
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I can hardly wrap my mind around the idea of pencilling 3 a day, let alone pencilling and inking 6 a day.
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Zaki Hasan
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Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 8101
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| Posted: 03 March 2007 at 11:34am | IP Logged | 5
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I don't think it's THAT prevalent, but I definitely get the sense lately that it's getting out of control. I buy more DC than Marvel, so I'm really feeling it there.
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Aaron Smith
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 06 September 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 10461
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| Posted: 03 March 2007 at 11:35am | IP Logged | 6
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I agree James. I'm a writer, not an artist, and haven't been published yet, but I do treat my writing as a "real job" and take it just as seriously as if I were being paid. This tendency of mine has certainly improved my abilities since I force myself to write as much as possible whether I "feel like it" or not, although usually I do.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 03 March 2007 at 11:37am | IP Logged | 7
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I definitely get the sense lately that it's getting out of control.*** It was officially "out of control" when Joe "Eight Year Olds Don't Buy Comics and Never Did" Quesada announced that fans no longer expect the books to come out monthly. That's the EDITOR IN CHIEF talking, folks!
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Karl Bollers
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Joined: 09 May 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 185
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| Posted: 03 March 2007 at 11:40am | IP Logged | 8
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JB: Jack Kirby could pencil 8 pages a day.
I've heard Joe Kubert can do 6 -- with inks!
JH: Other than Kirby, who else works at that rate of speed? Oh, I guess Kubert does! Still, wouldn't they be exceptions, not the rule? You're referring to the greats!
++++++++
I have to agree that experience can play a role in speed. Kirby was drawing FF, Tales to Astonish, etc. over twenty years after his career began. Who knows what his output was at the onset?
There are many factors as to why an artist might be late: illness (physical or otherwise), death in the family, slowness, etc.
However, lack of discipline can often be the case when the lateness is chronic:
A very popular Uncanny X-Men artist once told me that he was always late with his pencils because he hated the scripts. He also got depressed whenever it rained to the point where he couldn't produce.
A Marvel editor also told me that there was one Incredible Hulk artist who had to stop working to watch Oprah every day. Didn't he ever hear of the VCR?
I applaud artists like JB, JRjr, Frenz, Bagley, etc. who can stick to the monthly schedule.
It is unfortunate that a lot of slower artists don't admit to themselves that they can't realistically deliver the work on time. There are multiple reasons for this, but hey, let's face it: It's hard to turn away work in any industry. We all need to eat.
Unless you're a big name like Barry Smith, Neal Adams, or George Perez, it's going to be hard to find a publisher willing to accommodate your schedule.
Publishers know what they're getting into when they hire notoriously slow artists. I have always wondered why they don't treat these situations the way they do graphic novels (they're eventually going to publish them as trades, anyway) and have the whole thing done or almost complete before soliciting...isn't this what makes an Adam Hughes' Star Trek graphic novel possible?
It's become obvious that the comic book audience, for better or worse, has evolved beyond the 10-year old kid making his monthly dime store comic book purchase.
Back then, if you bought 12 comics a month, it cost $1.20. This is a kid's budget, and as such, buying these books in serialized format made absolute sense. Does the monthly format make sense now at $2.99 a pop, especially in light of the fact that the books will be collected in trade format six months down the line?
Publishers are obviously targeting an audience with more spending capital than a 10-year old, so why not treat it as such? Adults don't pay for the latest Stephen King book in piecemeal installments, they just make the purchase when the bloody thing is complete.
My point is, like school, there are always going to be some kids who do better at math and science than others. They are just wired differently. Some comic book artists are just slow. It's not fair to ask them to be faster (or bag on them for not being faster), and it's not fair for them to take on work that they can't deliver within the deadlines, but until this problem is seriously addressed by publishers, there will be no resolution.
*Edited to add:
I also knew a popular Marvel artist who would wait until the day before the issue was due then draw the entire book in the Marvel Bullpen in one evening. The results were spectacular, and the book was immensely popular during its time.
Consequently, rumor also had it that the artist in question was always high on cocaine when he was working, though I can not confirm this personally.
Edited by Karl Bollers on 03 March 2007 at 11:47am
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Ted Pugliese
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Joined: 05 December 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 7985
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| Posted: 03 March 2007 at 11:45am | IP Logged | 9
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Some comic book artists are just slow. It's not fair to ask them to be faster (or bag on them for not being faster), and it's not fair for them to take on work that they can't deliver within the deadlines, but until this problem is seriously addressed by publishers, there will be no resolution.
Maybe they should not be "comic book" artists, then. Maybe those who run a company that produces monthly comics should hire people who produce monthly work.
Maybe the big wigs at the top of the corporate ladder should look down and ask what the hell is going on down there.
If I were in charge of Warners, I would have a real problem with what has happened under Dan DiDio's watch, and I would look to Paul Levitz to either fix the problem or take the blame, because shit rolls down hill.
I do not remeber all this crap happeneing under Carlin's watch.
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Paulo Pereira
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Joined: 24 April 2006
Posts: 15539
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| Posted: 03 March 2007 at 11:47am | IP Logged | 10
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Also, those artists who are slower could try being cover artists or what have you. Some artists, like Adam Hughes and Art Adams know they're slow but they don't try to take on so-called monthly titles. They work within their capabilities.
Edited by Paulo Pereira on 03 March 2007 at 11:49am
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Aaron Smith
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Joined: 06 September 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 10461
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| Posted: 03 March 2007 at 11:48am | IP Logged | 11
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In regards to the question of whether the monthly format makes sense at 2.99 a pop: That's irrelevant to the subject of creators being slow and late. If the publishers schedule books on a monthly schedule, it is their responsibliity to get the books out on time, without excuses. A schedule is a schedule.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 134314
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| Posted: 03 March 2007 at 11:50am | IP Logged | 12
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There are many factors as to why an artist might be late: illness (physical or otherwise), death in the family, slowness, etc.*** If an artist is working to a realistic schedule, none of those things should cause him/her to be late. In 1980, I got married, moved to Chicago, and set about adjusting to a whole new lifestyle. I lost a couple of weeks, maybe a month -- but the work still went in on time, because I had set my own deadlines, ahead of Marvel's. Frank Miller told me, once upon a time, about a DarkHorse editor who insisted on giving him the "Drop Dead Deadline" -- the absolutely last day on which the book could be turned in and still ship when it was supposed to. Frank insisted he wanted the "No Fuck Ups Deadline" -- ie, when would he have to turn in the work to have a guarantee that all the in-house work (proofing, coloring, etc) would get done without any screwups. In other words, he wanted the longest deadline, not the shortest. When I was working on X-MEN and FF, the pencils were due about six months before the books shipped. That's a chief reason so few ever shipped late -- and why the people responsible for late books were considered jokes*. Bad jokes, at that.
*One writer-editor was so notorious for missing deadlines and running fill-ins, that when he started a brand new series for Marvel, the instant joke was people asking how he was going to find a reprint for the third issue. Turned out not to be such a joke after all. The third issue had to be done by another team, practically over-night.
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