Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login
The John Byrne Forum
Byrne Robotics > The John Byrne Forum << Prev Page of 170 Next >>
Topic: Healthcare Debate (was: Quesada apologizes) (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
Author
Message
Mike O'Brien
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar
Official JB Historian

Joined: 18 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 10927
Posted: 12 April 2010 at 12:53pm | IP Logged | 1  
Jodi - keep in mind - that's been a huge talking point for the right - that the more the left says, the more the movement grows - I've heard it on every nationally syndicated radio show - but it's just a line they're using.

The movement is growing the way any fear-based fringe kook movement grows. It will ebb and flow, wax and wane, like any other. The left pointing out flaws in it will not have any power over that.

However, it is our duty as vigilant citizens to keep them in check by pointing out the many problems of their movement.

Keep reporting. The fringe won't care what you say, but people who aren't racist or terrorists or whatever? Those people might be convinced to stop and say, "Well, wait. What's this movement really saying?"

We all want the government to handle money correctly.

Their whole point is moot.

Unless... unless they get really honest and say how exactly they want that money spent. And which peoples should and shouldn't get that money. Because then it would get really fun.

Back to Top profile | search
 
Joseph Gauthier
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 11 March 2009
Posts: 1429
Posted: 12 April 2010 at 1:04pm | IP Logged | 2  

Basically, your whole spiel...

So it's a spiel?  That's exactly what I speak of when I address attempts to delegitimize the movement.  If an argument is valid, the only way to question it, is attack the premises.  Look what you've just done:
So these people don't have the maturity or the moral conviction to make their own decisions? They are incapable of self-restraint? They have no sense of personal responsibility?
Not only have you put a fine point on my suggestion, but you've also used false choices and bad logic.  A move to the right does not mean becoming a racist, terrorist wannabe mob.

Can you instead, counter their central thesis?  Can you make a case that there does not come a point that deficit spending becomes destructive?  Or, if you're not of that mind, can you make a case that while that point does exist, that current levels do not approach that point?
Back to Top profile | search
 
Joseph Gauthier
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 11 March 2009
Posts: 1429
Posted: 12 April 2010 at 1:07pm | IP Logged | 3  
that's been a huge talking point for the right

So now I'm using talking points?
Back to Top profile | search
 
Brad Krawchuk
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 19 June 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 5814
Posted: 12 April 2010 at 1:14pm | IP Logged | 4  
Brad, I'm not calling for a civil war - but I also won't shy from it. All the Republicans have at this point is fear - they're using fear to get their base all riled up and they're trying to use fear to get the left to be compliant, but I refuse to give in to fear.

---

I totally understand where you're coming from Mike, my comment wasn't directly aimed at you just at the idea that it would be okay to violently oppress an opposing viewpoint. Since that's what we're calling THEM on, we shouldn't devolve to their level. 

I have no problem with standing your ground, and defending yourself against anything they throw you way. You won't shy away from a civil war? I won't shy away from supporting your side. 
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Brad Krawchuk
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 19 June 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 5814
Posted: 12 April 2010 at 1:43pm | IP Logged | 5  
Can you instead, counter their central thesis?

---

No. Trying to counter a central thesis involves people making one to begin with, and the teabaggers don't have one. They're an unruly mob spewing random unsupported claims against everything Obama does. All I've been hearing about for months is healthcare reform and how the government is going to choose who gets to live and die, and how the elderly are going to be subjected to death panels, and stuff like that. Now you're throwing what at me? The tea parties are about deficit spending?

I thought they started last year in response to the bailouts? I thought they were about that guy ranting that the government was supporting losers who couldn't afford their mortgages? I thought they were about healthcare? I've seen tea party signs against gay marriage, tea party signs against corporate buyouts, tea party signs against high taxes, tea party signs against tax cuts for the poor, tea party signs against minimum wage increases, tea party signs against black people, tea party signs showing Obama as Hitler, Stalin, and a Monkey. 

The only central thesis is, everything Obama does is bad. No reason, no evidence, no rationality. He's liberal, tea party people hate him. The tea party movement got started shortly after he took office, though the roots were in place starting after the election. 

During the Bush presidency, 9/11 blame was shifted to Clinton because a lot of the intelligence issues carried over from his tenure. 9/11 happened 9 months after Bush took office. Obama took office and not a couple weeks later he was being blamed for the largest economic crisis since the Great Depression, following 8 years of Bush presidency. 

No, Joseph. I can't counter the central thesis of tea baggers. The central thesis is they hate Obama for no reason, or they hate him because he's liberal, or they hate him because he's black, or realistically it's a combination of all three of those. 

Where were the people arguing against "deficit spending" when W. was launching a war against Iraq for no discernible reason? How many BILLIONS of dollars has that cost? How many THOUSANDS of American lives have been lost? How many WMDs were found? How many Al-Quaeda terrorists were in Iraq pre-war compared to post-war? Why was Osama allowed to go free for THAT?
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Brian Joseph Mayer
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 10 December 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 1135
Posted: 12 April 2010 at 1:51pm | IP Logged | 6  
Saying the teabaggers are representative of Republicans is much the same as saying the socialists are representative of Democrats.  Neither is true or accurate.  Yet it seems as though may people would rather throw stones out of their glass house just so they can cry when one is thrown back. To that degree, both parties are the same.
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Joseph Gauthier
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 11 March 2009
Posts: 1429
Posted: 12 April 2010 at 1:54pm | IP Logged | 7  
No, Joseph. I can't counter the central thesis of tea baggers. The central thesis is they hate Obama for no reason, or they hate him because he's liberal, or they hate him because he's black, or realistically it's a combination of all three of those.

Okay.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Brad Krawchuk
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 19 June 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 5814
Posted: 12 April 2010 at 1:55pm | IP Logged | 8  
BJM - I agree to a point, but why isn't the Republican Party coming out against teabaggers the way Democrats come out against Communism?
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Jeff Gillmer
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 30 August 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 1920
Posted: 12 April 2010 at 2:13pm | IP Logged | 9  

"Where were the people arguing against "deficit spending" when W. was launching a war against Iraq for no discernible reason?"

Not wanting to rehash the war, but consider this.  Democrats were able to increase their number in both houses during Bush's terms.  After the 2006 mid term elections, there were enough democrats elected to have Nancy Pelosi become house speaker.  After the 2008 elections, the democrats took the senate and presidency.  Do you think that if only registered democrats voted for the democrats, that would have happened?  No, it took many independents and republicans to vote for the democrats as well.  They may not have been marching in the streets, but they made their voices heard on those November days.

Edit: grammar



Edited by Jeff Gillmer on 12 April 2010 at 3:06pm
Back to Top profile | search
 
Brian Joseph Mayer
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 10 December 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 1135
Posted: 12 April 2010 at 2:43pm | IP Logged | 10  

I agree with you Jeff.  It points to the fact that it is the moderates of both sides who institute change, not the extremists from one end or the other. Yet, it is those on the far ends that seem to have the most "voice" in representing a party.

To that point, there are plenty of us against the teabaggers. We are the same ones against the extreme left too. We just don't see a reason to start shouting. 

If you want to tear down a wall, it is much easier to talk with a group of people with hammers than it is to shout at the wall.
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Victor Rodgers
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 26 December 2004
Posts: 3508
Posted: 12 April 2010 at 4:59pm | IP Logged | 11  
Yet, it is those on the far ends that seem to have the most "voice" in representing a party.

*******
Ha thats a good one. I wish the far left had any say in the Democratic party.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Al Cook
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 21 December 2004
Posts: 12735
Posted: 12 April 2010 at 5:06pm | IP Logged | 12  
The notion that the Democratic party in the States is even remotely left-of-centre is laughable in the extreme.  The only 'left' in the Democrats is that they are to the left of the Republicans.  I'm not even sure they're left enough to be centre, though.

Something like this, maybe.

Dirty Commies............................................Democrats .....................Republicans
LEFT--------------------------------------------------Centre ---------------------------------------------Right
Back to Top profile | search
 

<< Prev Page of 170 Next >>
  Post ReplyPost New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

 Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login