Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login
The John Byrne Forum
Byrne Robotics > The John Byrne Forum << Prev Page of 170 Next >>
Topic: Healthcare Debate (was: Quesada apologizes) (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
Author
Message
Jodi Moisan
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 19 February 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 6808
Posted: 14 April 2010 at 9:33pm | IP Logged | 1  

Wow this is a hopeful sign.
Back to Top profile | search | www
 
Brad Krawchuk
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 19 June 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 5814
Posted: 14 April 2010 at 10:10pm | IP Logged | 2  

Brad I commend you for having agreed to Mike O'Brien's thoughts. Having weighed both sides of the discussion you came to your conclusion. Just do not condem those who do not accept the argument that white society is as a whole racist.

---

If you commend me, cut the conditions otherwise it comes off callous. Thank you, but I'll continue to condemn ignorance as I please. 

Also I'll alliterate to do it, alright?






Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Michael Sommerville
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 12 April 2010
Location: Canada
Posts: 417
Posted: 14 April 2010 at 11:59pm | IP Logged | 3  

So all or nothing no middle ground. I got.

 

Back to Top profile | search
 
Michael Sommerville
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 12 April 2010
Location: Canada
Posts: 417
Posted: 15 April 2010 at 12:10am | IP Logged | 4  

Matt I agree because when its verrified wrong the opinion is no longer valid and most definately opposing opinions do not have to be taken seriously.

 



Edited by Michael Sommerville on 15 April 2010 at 12:13am
Back to Top profile | search
 
Al Cook
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 21 December 2004
Posts: 12735
Posted: 15 April 2010 at 6:00am | IP Logged | 5  

Magical 40th post, coming up next.

Back to Top profile | search
 
Dan Avenell
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 06 March 2008
Posts: 1038
Posted: 15 April 2010 at 6:09am | IP Logged | 6  

I've never seen a specific example of a man and a woman doing the exact same job, ie working for the same company in the same capacity, with the man being paid more than the woman. It may happen in certain high level board-room scenarios, I don't know. I know porn actresses get paid a lot more than male porn actors though.

But the average person working across from a member of the same sex is getting paid the same wage 99% of the time.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Donald Miller
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 03 February 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 3601
Posted: 15 April 2010 at 7:03am | IP Logged | 7  

But the average person working across from a member of the same sex is getting paid the same wage 99% of the time.

Please site your source for this it sounds like a made up number.

Back to Top profile | search | www e-mail
 
Dan Avenell
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 06 March 2008
Posts: 1038
Posted: 15 April 2010 at 7:07am | IP Logged | 8  

I pulled it out of my ass. Probably more like 99.9% of the time. I'd be happy to hear about any statistics proving women earn less than men for doing the exact same job though.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Al Cook
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 21 December 2004
Posts: 12735
Posted: 15 April 2010 at 7:23am | IP Logged | 9  

Your out-of-your-ass numbers aside, that sounds like a discussion for a separate thread.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Knut Robert Knutsen
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 22 September 2006
Posts: 7374
Posted: 15 April 2010 at 7:24am | IP Logged | 10  

"I've never seen a specific example of a man and a woman doing the exact same job, ie working for the same company in the same capacity, with the man being paid more than the woman."

Historically, in industrial towns in England at the time of the suffragette movement, the Unions actually demanded that women be paid less than the men for piecework (where you only get paid by the number of products you complete).  Some places the rate was as low as half for women. This appears to be the origin of the demand "Equal pay for equal work", and the slogan has survived its original context and may seem confusing in a modern context as the fight is now for a more general and less clearly defined "fair pay".

This inequality, where men publicly acknowledged that they resented being paid the same as women,  evolved into "parallell occupations", where women were given entry level jobs that were like secretarial jobs  or in some way limited in advancement opportunities, whereas men with comparable qualifications were given entry level positions with advancement opportunities that were paid more. Often women were asked to unofficially do "man's work" while being paid for "women's work" and still having limited opportunities. 

There are many stories of gifted women who, if they were men, would have quickly advanced to an executive position, and instead the best they could hope for was that an incompetent boss would "bring them along" to get their work done for them. 

Is there still a lot of this type of hidden inequality?  I'm not sure. It gets more and more difficult to tell, but there are two options: Things are getting more equal in the Western world or Sexist, patriarchal executives are getting better at disguising it.

Certainly in the world as a whole there can be no doubt that there are still double standards as regards rights and salaries of working women?

In my country the arguments often center arround "comparable occupations". Using education, stress, importance to society and continued economic prosperity etc. as standards for comparison. 

When people who go to university for years to become teachers, nurses etc.  actually lose money (according to analysis of lifetime net pay - i.e. factoring in the cost of student loans) compared to an unskilled factory worker or someone who went to vocational high school instead, that suggests a broken system.

When we end up with financial disincentives for people who want to take lengthy educations and fulfill central roles in society, that's a wooden show in the works of the big machine. If there weren't so many people eager for learning more or less for its own sake, we would be in big trouble.  

Back to Top profile | search
 
Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 14879
Posted: 15 April 2010 at 7:26am | IP Logged | 11  

This article has stats showing the gap by occupation:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405270230419800457517 2382976442708.html

Back to Top profile | search
 
Simon Bucher-Jones
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 04 May 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 835
Posted: 15 April 2010 at 7:32am | IP Logged | 12  

Thoughts

re opinions

If you believe that the moon is made of cheese: it is true that, that is your opinion. You are free to formulate it. You have a 'right' to draw your own conclusions. It is still the case that it is not cheese. Your opinion is untrue. Other people have a right to tell you so. If you are sensible you will bear in mind that some of your opinions will be mistaken.

re social racism

Imagine you can design a world, but when you're done your worst enemy will decide which race or sex you will be in it.  You'd want it to be fair right? Then he/she couldn't make you a female slave or a male serf, or a black slave, or a white captive.  Now imagine you have a [minority colour] or female foe, would you be happy if you could magically drop them into a society like the US (or the UK?)

Well, I don't think you'd be 'evilly' exstatic, things could be worse for your foe than they presently are, many worse/more sexist/more racist societies can be imagined. Nevertheless I think you could rub you hands a bit over the prospects of being one-down that they still, sadly. have. To the extent that a hypothetical evil 'placer' is pleased, a society is unfair. To the extent that a hypothetically evil 'placer' is foiled, a society is fair.

Now if it was were to 'evilly' place an atheist so they'd have the most problems....

Simon BJ



Edited by Simon Bucher-Jones on 15 April 2010 at 7:36am
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 

<< Prev Page of 170 Next >>
  Post ReplyPost New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

 Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login