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Jodi Moisan
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Posted: 18 April 2010 at 1:57pm | IP Logged | 1  

Interesting fact I found out about my governor Mitch Daniels and the Iraq war. It was his little shit for brain that convinced Bush the Iraq war would have a price tag of around 50 to 60 billion.  Lindsey said it would be 100 to 200 billion and Daniels contradicted him and Rumsfeld told Bush the Lindsey estimate was baloney. 

Well the Iraq war to date, has cost us over
718 BILLION .

US Military Fatalities:  4391
 


Edited by Jodi Moisan on 18 April 2010 at 1:58pm
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Matthew McCallum
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Posted: 18 April 2010 at 2:04pm | IP Logged | 2  

It gets "better", Jodi.

Don't you remember how the Iraq war was going to pay for itself from all those oil profits that the grateful Iraqi government was going to send our way to cover the costs of their liberation? Which led me to opine the somewhat unpopular thought at the time "So the American military is now available for lease?"

Edited to add: The Washington Post provides an excellent database of the young men and women sacrificed in Iraq and Afghanistan. Well worth a look.


Edited by Matthew McCallum on 18 April 2010 at 2:07pm
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Wayde Murray
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Posted: 18 April 2010 at 2:06pm | IP Logged | 3  

Matthew, I respect you as well, all the more so because you are actively employed and engaged in working within the system to improve the system. 

That being said, I wasn't advocating the left using the methods of the right in order to get back at the right for past transgressions.  I was suggesting the left adopt a methodology that is effective.  That's not tit-for-tat, that's just being pragmatic.  The best intentions mean nothing if you can't get results. 

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William McCormick
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Posted: 18 April 2010 at 2:11pm | IP Logged | 4  

(So where's Code Pink, Cindy Sheehan and the daily body count since January 2009?)

*************************

Cindy Sheehan is still protesting the war and was just arrested on March 20th outside the White House. She's no longer news to Fox anymore, because they're too busy with all the "death panels" and socialism nonsense.

http://dandelionsalad.wordpress.com/2010/03/21/cindy-sheehan -arrested-at-war-protest-in-d-c/

Just because someone isn't in the news, doesn't mean they aren't still fighting the good fight.

Code Pink is still very active, and protesting against Obama's decision to stay in Iraq and Afghanistan. In the middle is a list of their recent activities.

http://www.codepink4peace.org/

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William McCormick
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Posted: 18 April 2010 at 2:16pm | IP Logged | 5  

And I agree with Matthew about the GLB Act. It was the fault of both parties. I'm actually glad to see someone who leans right, admit it. We had this argument here some years back and everyone on the right blamed it on Clinton. Both parties voted that piece of shit legislation in. But, it was written by Repubs and they were the one who wanted it more. The first vote almost no Dems voted for it. The Repubs had to make changes to get them behind it.
 
What those changes were, I have no idea, but I think it was making the banks honor the Community Reinvestment Act that was signed into law under Carter. I could be wrong about that.
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Jodi Moisan
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Posted: 18 April 2010 at 2:17pm | IP Logged | 6  

Matthew : I view life to be important and do not support abortion except in the most extreme need. No home for me with the Democrats.

I am a democrat that opposes abortion, so therefore if I get pregnant, I will not have one. But I do not believe I should make that decision for others.  That is between the woman, her doctor, her partner and her god. No where should I be in that debate. And if this woman comes to the choice of abortion, it should be done in the safest way. And I believe sex ed in high schools should include what an abortion is and encourage other birth control methods.  Dems don't want people to get abortions, they just want the option on the table for those that decide to have one.

Matthew you are right, the dems share some responsibility in passing that bill and we are now trying to do something about it, but the R's are trying to block us.


Edited by Jodi Moisan on 18 April 2010 at 2:19pm
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 18 April 2010 at 2:19pm | IP Logged | 7  

I believe Presidents Truman, Johnson, Nixon and Ford would have LOVED a country that rallied around a war-time (or police action) president. But more to the point, Wayde, perhaps you might want to invert your question. To paraphrase Peter, Paul and Mary, "Where have all the war protests gone?"

If I'm Blue, overseas wars are bad. (So where's Code Pink, Cindy Sheehan and the daily body count since January 2009?)

---

As far as I can tell, Code Pink is just as critical of Obama's foreign policy regarding Iraq and Afghanistan, and Cindy Sheehan is protesting Obama for the continued war effort, even getting arrested recently.

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Matthew McCallum
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Posted: 18 April 2010 at 2:44pm | IP Logged | 8  

Wayde,

I'd prefer a pragmatism of solutions rather than a pragmatism of tactics.

Right now, we have an infrequent hat trick in the US government: one party has solid majorities in the House and Senate and they control the Executive branch. In those circumstances the majority party can pass whatever legislation they see fit. As they should, having won such a solid electoral mandate. The party in power in such circumstances does not need the support of the opposition, nor do they particularly welcome it. It is more politically expedient to paint the opposition as intellectually bankrupt and obstructionist. (Which, in the interest of accuracy, most oppositions usually are.)

I've mentioned these numbers before, but it bears repeating: The average cost of a Congressional race is $2 million dollars. Thus, each Congressman on average needs to raise $2,740 every day, Monday through Sunday. That's a lot of scratch to raise.

One way to motivate your donors is to paint the opposition as extremists. They are socialists leading the country off an economic cliff and straight to the gulag. They are the Party of No blocking needed progress and reform while people die on the streets. They are baby-killing warmongers who want your children to die on foreign soil for cheap oil. They are appeasers inviting more and deadlier conflict here in the homeland

And thus, the public is kept in a constant state of rage, stirred up at the demons across the aisle. Demons who also happen to be fellow Americans. Demons who love their children, who want a better and more prosperous future. Demons who, frankly, are not all that demonic once you step out of the partisan bubble.
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Mike O'Brien
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Posted: 18 April 2010 at 2:49pm | IP Logged | 9  

Look, bud, I said I was done with you, and I am, but let me use your pithy little rant to explain my position:

Matthew: I respect Mike O'B. <-- No, you don't. That's something someone says to score "high ground" points in a debate. Instead, you just come off cheap and sleazy.


Matthew: His continual rejoinder of "so vote Republican", however, is as tiresome as it is insulting. <-- Good - you should be insulted. Just as I'm sick of this constant back and forth of "Well, you guys did it too!", while people still support their candidate. It's very simple - if both sides did it, and you're calling someone on it, you're not in a position to make a judgement on it. That's where the line comes from. I wish I could take credit for it, but it's an internet meme.

Matthew: Essentially, he says "If you object to anything about my guy, then you must be one of them, and a pox on your house." <--- Aside from over-reacting to me and misunderstanding my point, this is the "game" I speak of so frequently in my posts. It's not a good "game" but it's how politics works. Tough shit. And by the way - you can not claim any sort of middle ground here - you talk a lot about how you're neither D or R, yet you always support the R arguement. One day you're going to have to come to terms with your Republicanism.


Matthew: And thus, I explore Mike's thesis with my own beliefs. I view life to be important and do not support abortion except in the most extreme need. No home for me with the Democrats. I do not interpret the Second Amendment to indiscriminately allow handguns into every home and I favour strict licensing and gun control. No home for me with the Republicans. <-- So far, so... almost good. Plenty Dems are against Abortion. You recall the mess with Stupak, no? And you'll find some Repubs with reasonable views on guns. Like the guy who took a bullet for Reagan.

Matthew: I want a government committed to activities only government can do, which benefit the common wealth and not special interests with the deepest pockets, and elected officials who do not spend like drunken sailors in an attempt to curry electoral favour. No home for me in either party. <--- And the train goes off the rails. You want activities that only Government can do - that's the TeaBag talking point - they take care of the Military, Police, Fire, Roads, Schools, Bridges and let free market sort out the rest. That's Republican. The rest you put in about being responsible? Everyone wants that.

Matthew: Mike, wouldn't it be better to have people of principle in office rather than just voting for them because they have an R or a D behind their name? When I managed candidates back in Canada, I worked for Liberals and Conservatives. (The party was then called the Progressive Conservatives; wouldn't Glenn Beck love that?) Party mattered far less to me than person. It still does. I hope it always will.<--- NO.

No, no no no NO No No NO NO nO and No.

I don't give two shits about the character of a politician. I'm not interested in passing that sort of judgement. I am interested in that politician working on bills and laws that reflect the type of government that I'm interested in. If the R was a clean cut guy with a wife and kids and the D was foot-fucking a crippled dog's mouth while lying in a giant vat of AIDS, I'd still vote for the D because I could not vote for a candidate who supports the policies of R.

It really is that easy. Really.

I do not believe in the Republican position. It is not close to the Democrats position, and there is no issue that would get me to vote for a Republican. The belief system is totally opposite.

I really am done debating you. I will not stand for people talking down to me - you've played that hand a few too many times lately. I get that my posts can be ranting and nutty, but you, Sir, are in no position to judge me.

I'm done with you and your "I'm not a Republican, but I support everything about Republicans, and sniff sniff, I'm so smarter than you, even when my logic doesn't make sense" posts. I'm done with you playing the game and refusing to acknowledge it - you called someone else out for doing the exact same thing you did recently - you made a statement, someone tried to parse it and play dumb to bait you and you called them on it, and I thought - "My God - that's EXACTLY what he does to my posts. The man isn't just a crumb, he's a hypocrite, too!"

Go climb your thumb, you bum.

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Matthew McCallum
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Posted: 18 April 2010 at 2:59pm | IP Logged | 10  

Jodi,

I'm firmly in the "rare, safe and legal" camp. Frankly, I think the only place where we might differ is just how rare is rare.

As for the proposed Wall Street Reform, I have no opinion yet because I have not read the legislation and done my homework. I certainly believe reform is necessary; it just may not necessarily be that reform.

If it's a good bill, and the Republicans are playing politics, I'll be among the first to call them on it.
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Matthew McCallum
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Posted: 18 April 2010 at 3:08pm | IP Logged | 11  

As far as I can tell, Code Pink is just as critical of Obama's foreign policy regarding Iraq and Afghanistan, and Cindy Sheehan is protesting Obama for the continued war effort, even getting arrested recently.

Michael, the operative words in your statement are "as far as I can tell". Because those players sure are not making the nightly news anymore for their war protests.

A quick Google News on "Code Pink" shows them following Karl Rove around on his book tour and crashing various Tea Party events. They also sent out a press release against the Isreali settlements in Gaza.

Google News "Code Pink Obama" and there still seems to be no evidence of any protests against the current President and his policies on the first few pages.

Objections may still exist, but they are certainly muted.
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 18 April 2010 at 3:19pm | IP Logged | 12  

Google News "Code Pink Obama" and there still seems to be no evidence of any protests against the current President and his policies on the first few pages.

Objections may still exist, but they are certainly muted.

----

Looking on their home page, the second and third banner links are:

http://www.codepink4peace.org/article.php?list=type&type=400

and

http://www.losing-hope.org/

How is that muted?

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