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Topic: Healthcare Debate (was: Quesada apologizes) (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Mike O'Brien
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Posted: 29 April 2010 at 9:14pm | IP Logged | 1  

Well, I don't just blindly accept information, yes. Plus, as I noted
above, even if I did accept it, it still comes out a wash even at the
most basic level, and then if you analize it at all you see that it falls
apart.

So... still not seeing how the media is actually liberal.

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Matthew McCallum
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Posted: 29 April 2010 at 9:40pm | IP Logged | 2  

Mike O'B,

Haven't read Game Change yet. I'm sure I'll get there eventually. I've got to finish the 20 books stacked on my night table first.

Based on my impressions and recollections of Decision 2008, I think Sarah Palin was a breath of fresh air in the McCain campaign until the media went to town on her (i.e. exposed her for what she was). If she had debuted two weeks before the election, before the media could really start digging, McCain might have been able to pull it out just on the initial momentum that she added to the Republican ticket. But she came with so much political baggage that was exposed drip by drip in the following weeks, and with every television news report and feature article she sank the Republican ticket just a little bit further.

As for the leftward tilt of the media, I view such studies of voting patterns and political attitudes with an air of "Well, that's somewhat obvious."

If you consider professions on personality types. people who seek to change the world -- who are by-and-large liberal in nature -- are willing to enter into low paying professions like education and journalism. I don't know if things have changed since I went to University, but the attitude was those with a liberal bent who were not smart enough to get into Law School or Medical School defaulted into Education. Journalism was seen as a step below that.

Conversely, the conservatives not smart enough to get into Med School or Law School would go after an MBA.

You can look at a similar self-selection between those who go the path of academia versus think tanks. The reason why so many Universities are seen as "left-wing" is because most of the right-wing academics have gone off to cosy spots in the Rand Corporation and their cousins.

Of course, there are many exceptions that can be held up and pointed to as proof of faulty logic, but like all generalizations there is an essential truth at the core.


Edited by Matthew McCallum on 30 April 2010 at 3:25am
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Mike O'Brien
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Posted: 29 April 2010 at 10:57pm | IP Logged | 3  

Don't rush to read Game Change or anything - it's really trashy. But ... really really fun, too. It's written in a style that I can only call.. Perez Hilton-esque.

Having said that, the gossipy angle of it makes it impossible to put down - you can't turn the pages fast enough to find out what Hillary was bitching about, who Bill was screwing, what positions Edwards and that new age tramp were screwing in, what a horrid, yet tragically dying person Mrs Edwards was, what a cool yet mean character Obama was, what a grumpy old dumb-shit McCain was, and what a complete in-over-her-head out of control dumbshit Palin was.

Written like that, basically. Totally trashy - I felt embarrased to be reading it. But some of the behind the scene stuff... had the air of truth, and was kind of exciting to read, and the bits about Palin were priceless - you feel like... if they were true, it explains everything.

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Matthew McCallum
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Posted: 30 April 2010 at 4:19am | IP Logged | 4  

Mike O'B,

Further to the discussion on media voting patterns, I found the following PDF that summarizes a number of the different media studies over the last 20-plus years. It's likely one of these studies is the one John O'Connor was remembering.

Most of these studies are University based (George Washington University; Smith College; Indiana University; Harvard's JFK School of Government). Some are by media organizations (The Los Angeles Times; CBS; the American Society of Newspaper Editors; the trade magazine Editor and Publisher; Slate; various reporters polling their colleagues). A few are by polling firms (PEW Research Center; Gallup; Rasmussen).

It should be noted this collection is put together by the right-wing effort Media Research Center, but it should be easy enough to back-track to the original source material if one has doubts.
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Donald Miller
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Posted: 30 April 2010 at 6:20am | IP Logged | 5  

Just catching up.

Wanted to say that a survey showing that members of the media were more left leaning the average American wouldn't surprise me at all...However when the right refers to "Liberal media" they are not referring to the personal views of media employees, but rather, how issues are represented....which is actually rather conservatively.
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Kevin Hagerman
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Posted: 30 April 2010 at 7:02am | IP Logged | 6  

People who believe the media is liberal probably also believe the officials were such mean meanies to John McEnroe and Bobby Knight.
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Jodi Moisan
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Posted: 30 April 2010 at 7:34am | IP Logged | 7  

God I HATE Bobby Knight, I wore a shirt in college that said "I am for Ball State and anyone playing IU".

I just read a poll that said the more education you have the more liberal you are likely to be. So the fact journalist are liberal leaning makes sense. But at what point did liberal become such a dirty word?  I swear being in the very Red state of Indiana and having Bayh's senate seat open for the very first time in a long time, the republicans that are running for the republican nomination is disgusting. I swear the only thing they haven't said, is that liberals eat babies and rape little kids.
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Mike O'Brien
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Posted: 30 April 2010 at 8:23am | IP Logged | 8  

Jodi, you're almost there - that goes back a few posts to where this started - it's all part of the narrative - that supposedly educated = liberal = brainwashed, and so on. There was a point in the 80s where Rs started trashing "liberal" - instead of saying someone was a commie or a socialist, they'd say, as if in a big reveal, "My opponent is a... LIBERAL!" and it stuck.

The "Game", remember. It's all lies, propaganda, and a game.

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Matt Reed
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Posted: 30 April 2010 at 9:59am | IP Logged | 9  

 John OConnor wrote:
You're questioning who ran the study about a decade ago -- Does it really matter?

Absolutely.  100%.  All the time.  Doesn't matter how long ago the study was run, everyone should always question many things about every study; who backed the study, what the actual questions were, what was the central thesis (if any), what the study was proposed to illuminate.  No one should ever blindly accept every study.  You (the general you) are on especially shaky ground if you don't question this study because it confirms your belief, but question other studies when they don't.

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William McCormick
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Posted: 30 April 2010 at 11:04am | IP Logged | 10  

Just this semester we did a study for my statistics class and we went out and asked some very pointed questions. It's amazing how much the way it's worded can impact the answer. We asked questions that you expect the same answer from, but based on how it was asked, we got 2 entirely different responses.

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Matthew McCallum
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Posted: 30 April 2010 at 11:23am | IP Logged | 11  

But at what point did liberal become such a dirty word?

That, Jodi, is the $64,000 question.

Liberal certainly wasn't a bad word back when I lived in Canada: the Liberal Party there governed for the vast majority of the 20th Century, while the Conservative Party was thrice reduced to a rump caucus. (Things were so bad at one point for the Tories, the Conservative Party merged with the Progressive Party to become the Progressive Conservative Party. I bet THAT would get Glenn Beck started!)

I think the word Liberal is being reclaimed in the United States thanks to Obama. These things go in cycles. We've had 30 years of Liberal being a bad word, and there was a time from the New Deal to the to the mid-1970s when it wasn't very flattering to be called a Conservative. (They are all kooks like Barry Goldwater!)

On the issue of media, I throw three thoughts out for discussion: the false belief in an "objective media", the Liberal predisposition amongst individual reporters, and concentration and corporate control of media sources.

In the early days, each viewpoint had their own newspaper. You had the more conservative paper (usually a business rag) and the more liberal paper (usually a bit sensational, advocating for reform and progress) and a mixture of others. The papers catered to the preconceived notions of their readership, and people self-selected to their paper of choice.

As the media moved into the electronic age, given the limited number of frequencies available, this gave rise to the idea of an objective media. Simply, there wasn't enough bandwidth available for partisanship and a separation of points-of-view. Print media followed to a degree as well as competing newspapers began to wither away. And when you had NBC, CBS and ABC pretty much speaking in one voice and dominating the airwaves, you had a relatively small group of editors, reporters and anchors directing the content and deciding what was important news.

But objectivity is a false premise. We all have predispositions, and reporters are no different. Take virtually any news story and deconstruct it. How is the issue framed? What is the story shape? What's the lead? Do you see the commentary mixed in with the reporting?

So, there's no objectivity, but perhaps an effort at balance. And in a field that is more attractive to those of a liberal bent, one should not be surprised at stories being framed in more of a liberal context. There really shouldn't be much argument over this point. Indeed, the journalists we look back upon with the greatest praise are those impassioned advocates, the muckraking crusaders.

BUT -- and it is a very big but that I interject at this point -- what gets lost in the mix of the "Liberal Media" debate: Corporate control and concentration. We only see the stories that make it to air and to print, and some complain about their tilt to the left. But what stories get spiked or downplayed because it is bad business to upset a sponsor, or goes against the corporate interests of ownership?

Project Censored annually lists the Top 25 Under- and Unreported News Stories of the year. Here's the top five from 2009 and see if you detect a pattern:

  1. US Congress Sells Out to Wall Street (Since 2001, eight of the most troubled financial firms donated $64.2 million to Democrats and Republicans alike. Considering the billions awarded from TARP, not a bad return on investment...)
  2. US Schools are More Segregated Today than in the 1950s (2 out of every 5 latino and black students attend intensely segregated schools. Not the right message to be sending out when we have a Black president who broke the colour barrier and we are all one big happy now...)
  3. Toxic Waste Behind Somali Pirates (The fishermen chose piracy after western nations polluted their traditional fishing waters and destroyed their livelihood. Doesn't excuse their villainy, but sure muddies the waters somewhat.)
  4. Nuclear Waste Pools in North Carolina (The Shearon Harris Nuclear Plant is a major storage facility for spent fuel rods from other east coast plants and 2 million residents are in harm's way should cooling systems in these ponds fail. Big cancer risks.)
  5. Europe blocks US Toxic Products (Did you read about all the bad stuff that came here from China? Did you ever hear about the bad US-made stuff we shipped to Europe, like lipsticks and cosmetics that contained lead?)

It's pretty easy to see why some of these stories didn't get much traction. How many full page ads in newspapers and glossy commercials on television do you see for banks and investment firms? And do you think Revlon might pull their ads if we start detailing how they are poisoning Europe?

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Matthew McCallum
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Posted: 30 April 2010 at 11:35am | IP Logged | 12  

Just this semester we did a study for my statistics class and we went out and asked some very pointed questions. It's amazing how much the way it's worded can impact the answer. We asked questions that you expect the same answer from, but based on how it was asked, we got 2 entirely different responses.

And more to that point, what questions do I ask in advance that prime the pump?

If I ask you some questions on national security, and then ask you about border security, I might be able to plump my result more than if I just asked you the border security question cold.

A very humourous but oh-so-true approach is from a wonderful British television series Yes Minister / Yes Prime Minister. Let me share the dialogue between the seasoned bureaucrat and his young charge on how to skew survey results:

Sir Humphrey demonstrates how public surveys can reach opposite conclusions]
Sir Humphrey Appleby: Mr. Woolley, are you worried about the rise in crime among teenagers?
Bernard Woolley: Yes.
Sir Humphrey Appleby: Do you think there is lack of discipline and vigorous training in our Comprehensive Schools?
Bernard Woolley: Yes.
Sir Humphrey Appleby: Do you think young people welcome some structure and leadership in their lives?
Bernard Woolley: Yes.
Sir Humphrey Appleby: Do they respond to a challenge?
Bernard Woolley: Yes.
Sir Humphrey Appleby: Might you be in favour of reintroducing National Service?
Bernard Woolley: Er, I might be.
Sir Humphrey Appleby: Yes or no?
Bernard Woolley: Yes.
Sir Humphrey Appleby: Of course, after all you've said you can't say no to that. On the other hand, the surveys can reach opposite conclusions.
[survey two]
Sir Humphrey Appleby: Mr. Woolley, are you worried about the danger of war?
Bernard Woolley: Yes.
Sir Humphrey Appleby: Are you unhappy about the growth of armaments?
Bernard Woolley: Yes.
Sir Humphrey Appleby: Do you think there's a danger in giving young people guns and teaching them how to kill?
Bernard Woolley: Yes.
Sir Humphrey Appleby: Do you think it's wrong to force people to take arms against their will?
Bernard Woolley: Yes.
Sir Humphrey Appleby: Would you oppose the reintroduction of conscription?
Bernard Woolley: Yes.
[does a double-take]
Sir Humphrey Appleby: There you are, Bernard. The perfectly balanced sample.

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