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Keith Thomas Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 06 April 2009 Location: United States Posts: 3082
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Posted: 29 March 2010 at 4:44pm | IP Logged | 1
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Mike and Knut are quite correct in their takes on what I said, and what I was getting at.
But one agreed with you and one didn't...
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Matthew McCallum Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 03 July 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 2710
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Posted: 29 March 2010 at 4:58pm | IP Logged | 2
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Al, Your thoughts on the classless society brought to mind a story told by Mike Huckabee concerning his presentation on Medicaid Reform to the Senate Finance Committee in June 2005. Huckabee (R) and Mark Warner (D), on behalf of the National Governors Association, were presenting a bipartisan policy document that had been signed off by all 50 governors, republicans and democrats alike. They expected little challenge in getting these widely endorsed policies accepted at the federal level to fix Medicaid. They were wrong, but that's not the story I want to share. I'll let Governor Huckabee tell you in his own words: "I personally will never forget my appearance before the Senate Finance Committee, which oversees Medicaid on the Senate side. At one point, I found myself being lectured by Ted Kennedy, John Kerry, and Jay Rockefeller about the 'tragedy of poverty.' I later told a reporter that it was surreal having poverty explained to me, a person who as a kid lived it, by three of the wealthiest men in the United States, for whom being 'deprived' probably meant having to cut short a month's vacation in Europe." (From Do The Right Thing: Inside the Movement That's Bringing Common Sense Back to America, page 151. Thank you Google books!)
Obviously, Al, just as one must be atop the high mountain to appreciate the fullness of the valley below, one cannot understand the tragedy of poverty if they are presently immersed in it or have only recently pried themselves free of its clutches. I wonder similarly, just as one must be in the depths of the valley to appreciate the impressiveness of the mountains soaring skyward, if it would be instructive to assemble some people I know from the poorer sections of Shasta County and have them explain to Senators Kerry and Rockefeller the burden of wealth...
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Matthew McCallum Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 03 July 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 2710
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Posted: 29 March 2010 at 5:34pm | IP Logged | 3
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Al, you'd be shocked at how much of American politics involves screwing or benefitting Mike O'Brien. It's a weighty responsibility. Moderator: The next question for the candidates comes from the Internet from a viewer in California. It reads "If elected president, in the next four years, do you intend on screwing or benefitting Mike O'Brien?" Senator Obama? Senator Obama: I welcome this question. For the last eight years, the Bush administration has engaged in a dedicated policy of screwing Mike O'Brien, frequently and at every opportunity. When Bush wasn't lying about Mike O'Brien, Dick Cheney had a secret task force dreaming up new ways of screwing Mike O'Brien, and using illegal wiretaps to do the job more effectively. This is wrong. It has to change, and I promise, under an Obama administration, that it will change. It is not fair that one man gets all the screwing. That's not American. You see, I think things are better off when you can spread the screwing around. Moderator: Senator McCain? Senator McCain: When Senator Obama says he wants to spread the screwing around, he doesn't appreciate how much effort it takes to get into a position where you can expect to be screwed in the first place. My friend here with the Harvard Law Degree and the Chicago manners doesn't understand what it's like to be Mike O'Brien. He believes in a big government dedicated in ensuring everyone gets equally screwed, not just those who've worked hard and really, really earned it. That's Canadian socialism. As your president, I promise, Mike O'Brien will be completely and thoroughly screwed, and in a cooperative, bipartisan manner.
Edited by Matthew McCallum on 29 March 2010 at 5:36pm
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Mike O'Brien Byrne Robotics Member
Official JB Historian
Joined: 18 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 10927
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Posted: 29 March 2010 at 5:53pm | IP Logged | 4
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HA! Let me be clear here - I have no desire to be screwed in a bi-partisan manner - I want to be screwed by neither Nancy Pelosi nor Michelle Bachmann. I want neither Barbara Boxer, nor Sarah Palin. I will, out of respect for the man and the office, not say how I feel in regards to my potential screwing and Michelle Obama, however...
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Mike Benson Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 04 January 2010 Location: United States Posts: 851
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Posted: 29 March 2010 at 6:01pm | IP Logged | 5
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Mike, after I saw this video, I immediately thought of this question you asked a few days ago: ***** Thanks for posting. Telling, indeed. You just can't have a "free market" without this kind of thing occurring. As the farmer said, they aren't doing it to hurt anyone, they're just trying to make a living. They didn't create the economic system, they're just working the best they can within it. And it goes back to my original point, though I believe we've moved on (collective applause here): insurance companies really aren't trying to hurt anyone. They're doing what they have to in order to survive, and profit, within an economic system they didn't create. They're no more evil, or malicious, than these farmers are.
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Mike O'Brien Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 18 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 10927
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Posted: 29 March 2010 at 6:11pm | IP Logged | 6
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Yes, Mike, Yes - you're almost there - the health insurance companies are not trying to hurt anyone - they are just making money in a free market system.You are right. Now go one further - but by doing so, they ARE hurting people. A hitman is also just making money, isn't he? Here's what so many of us are saying: we're all for the free market, but health INSURANCE shouldn't be about making money. It exists as a system to help people pay for health care. It's there so that Medical professionals can make richly deserved money. While I'm all for a free market, I feel very comfortable saying that some things aren't meant for the free market. Our police force. Our fire fighters. Health Insurance.
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Mike Benson Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 04 January 2010 Location: United States Posts: 851
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Posted: 29 March 2010 at 8:04pm | IP Logged | 7
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Big leap there, my friend. A hitman is breaking the law, by definition. Insurance companies are working within it. And for a brief moment, I thought you were the one who was "almost there." Alas. We agree that getting to the point where healthcare is provided for everyone should be this nation's goal, but vilifying those that are working within the current, LEGAL system isn't accurate and it isn't fair.
Edited by Mike Benson on 29 March 2010 at 8:06pm
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Jodi Moisan Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 19 February 2008 Location: United States Posts: 6808
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Posted: 29 March 2010 at 8:23pm | IP Logged | 8
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Damn it Al, I keep thinking the page is going to change so the first thing I see, isn't the picture of a "thing tucker" you posted. LOL
Edited by Jodi Moisan on 29 March 2010 at 8:24pm
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Kevin Brown Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 31 May 2005 Location: United States Posts: 9165
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Posted: 29 March 2010 at 8:48pm | IP Logged | 9
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No wonder people are mad at Obama. He's making life better for a filthy degenerate like Mike O'Brien. ************************************** Damn. That did it. I vote Green Party next time.
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Al Cook Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 21 December 2004 Posts: 12735
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Posted: 29 March 2010 at 8:49pm | IP Logged | 10
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When I'm handing out (footing out?) those good hard kicks some folks are going to need that, Jodi.
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Brad Krawchuk Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 19 June 2006 Location: Canada Posts: 5814
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Posted: 29 March 2010 at 8:50pm | IP Logged | 11
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We agree that getting to the point where healthcare is provided for everyone should be this nation's goal, but vilifying those that are working within the current, LEGAL system isn't accurate and it isn't fair.
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Just because something is legal, doesn't make it right. Just because someone is doing something perfectly legal, doesn't mean they're doing good. There are plenty - oh so plenty! - of examples throughout history where the legality of something was called into question, challenged, overthrown, and positive change came about as a result.
Don't cry me a river if some suit gets called an asshole while he's buying his wife a new Lexus with the bonus he got by cutting care and resources and driving up profits at the local hospital. "They're just doing their jobs, can't blame them for what they're allowed to do!" isn't really the greatest argument to make. They either realize they're sacrifice the lives and well-beings of people to make a buck or they're stupid - in either case, vilify away says I.
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Mike O'Brien Byrne Robotics Member
Official JB Historian
Joined: 18 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 10927
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Posted: 29 March 2010 at 8:58pm | IP Logged | 12
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Mike, I'll meet you half way on that - I don't mean to vilify the people working for Health Insurance, I'm saying the system is wrong, not the individuals.And just because something is legal doesn't mean it's not inncorrect - slavery was legal for a few hundred years. What's more, without slavery - without the free labor, we wouldn't be the world power that we are today. That's one of those dark thoughts that keeps one up at night... But you see, it's similar - with slavery, something wrong was happening, but it was legal and it was financially benefitting certain people and it was a needed thing (ie, labor, just as a method for paying for people's health care is needed.) Health Insurance doesn't need to be a bottom-line chasing free market for-profit enterprise. It was be what it was created to be - a system whereby people chip in regularly, and in exchange, don't have to worry about medical bills. Nothing wrong with that.
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