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Joe Welsh Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: April 19 2004 Posts: 197
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Posted: June 26 2015 at 2:32am | IP Logged | 1
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Healthcare for all, is the absolute best thing taxes could ever be used for. Better than raising armies, or any other major function of government.
Healthcare is a universal human right.
------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------- Universal is a big word.
Government at it's best, interferes with my life as little as it can. It uses my taxes to fund protection of my right to live my life, earn a respectable living, protect it's citizens from outside harm and mediate disputes with a standard that everyone can use.
Is there a Universal human right to shelter?
There are universal Human rights: The right to live your life The right to learn all that you can. The right to make a living honestly without defrauding anyone The right to give to charity or not without being forced. The right to live for yourself and not someone else.
When you are forced to give what you have earned to someone else without your consent you setup a system where someone can force you to support the homeless, the hungry, the sick or the just plain lazy. Guess what you give up the real universal human right: To be free.
Joe Welsh
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Joe Zhang Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: April 16 2004 Location: United States Posts: 12857
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Posted: June 26 2015 at 2:51am | IP Logged | 2
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Healthcare is an investment in the most important resource of any nation: it's people. And truth be told, for a long while now people have been treated as an expendable commodity.
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Michael Roberts Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: April 20 2004 Location: United States Posts: 14911
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Posted: June 26 2015 at 3:15am | IP Logged | 3
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QUOTE:
Not a good example? Ok. How about this example. 5 families in your town cannot afford their home because their credit is bad and cannot get assistance. Your Town government decides that because you have good credit and a good job that you should be taxed an extra $95 a month to help the the 5 families keep their home. The slogan is "Everyone needs a place to live" |
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Do you have an issue with childless couples paying property taxes that go to schools? Or can you acknowledge that even those taxes don't directly benefit those families, there is a societal benefit with public education by reducing crime and providing for an educated workforce?
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Gonna argue that one? Ok, than maybe this one will convince you. There are a lot of illegal drivers driving cars without insurance, shouldn't you be okay with the insurance company charging you, a good driver, who pays his premium, extra to cover those who don't? Do you happily pay the extra charges every month, or do you grouse that it's not right to charge you for people who can't or wont? |
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If you have an issue with this, then you should be in support of universal health care, because this is the status quo that Republicans have been trying to uphold. Medical costs are driven up by the uninsured who don't receive preventive care and end up in the emergency room. These costs are passed on to the insured.
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Conrad Teves Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: January 28 2014 Location: United States Posts: 2318
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Posted: June 26 2015 at 3:42am | IP Logged | 4
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Maybe I've read too many comic books, but it was always my belief that the powerful were supposed to protect the helpless. In practice, the strong are more likely to protect the rich.
I submit that any society that purports to be "advanced" is obligated to provide for the health and education of its people if it has any hope of remaining "advanced."
There are about 45 million Americans living below the poverty line. If you do the arithmetic, we could easily afford to make that just go away. It's a worthy question to ask why it is preferable to let them suffer, than do everything we can (free education, free health care, etc.) to lift them up.
I laugh a grim sort of laugh when I see the Rich teach the Middle Class to blame the Poor--y'know...the ones with no money and no power.
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Chris Blaise Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: April 16 2004 Location: United States Posts: 322
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Posted: June 26 2015 at 5:27am | IP Logged | 5
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I can't get over 50k for having a baby. Mine cost me about $45 in parking fees. How could someone without insurance have multiple children or even one? *** $50k for a birth in America makes perfect sense when you realize that one of our country's founding and continually guiding principles is to exploit others for financial gain.
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Steven Myers Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: June 10 2004 Location: United States Posts: 5732
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Posted: June 26 2015 at 6:49am | IP Logged | 6
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If you aren't willing to help the weakest and most vulnerable in your society you're acting in a rather inhuman manner. And the private sector does not cover everything they need.
It even make financial sense. Investing in the poor makes them less likely to stay poor, and therefore they become tax paying citizens eventually. Also, there's the example of the city that figured they're saving thousands of dollars per person by building homes for the homeless.
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Jeremy Simington Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: April 10 2011 Location: United States Posts: 687
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Posted: June 26 2015 at 7:23am | IP Logged | 7
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JOE WELSH: Is there a Universal human right to shelter?
Yes, unequivocally. While it may not convince everyone*, the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights is a powerful document that addresses this issue (see Article 25).
*Joe, I bet you might come to agree because many of the other rights you listed are in the Declaration.
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Dave Phelps Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: April 16 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4188
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Posted: June 26 2015 at 7:30am | IP Logged | 8
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Joe Welsh wrote:
Obviously, I am against the ruling as I am against the actual law. |
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If it was a law you supported, would you still feel that page after page saying one thing can be completely eradicated by one line that could be interpreted differently?
QUOTE:
Government at it's best, interferes with my life as little as it can. It uses my taxes to fund protection of my right to live my life, earn a respectable living, protect it's citizens from outside harm and mediate disputes with a standard that everyone can use. |
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Sure, but "fund protection of my right to live my life" and "earn a respectable living" is more open than you might think.
If you lose your job and have trouble finding another one, you start missing payments on the mortgage and you lose your home. Without a home you won't be finding another job and you will never be a contributing member of society again. Alternatively, the Government can allot you some money to get you past the hump. When your fortunes change, you're back to paying your taxes and solvent on your mortgage and everyone wins.
You can't work if you're sick. So protecting your ability to earn a living means ensuring you can get healthcare. Heck you even acknowledged that "we need to have a way to cover people who really cannot afford health insurance." Doctors cost money. Medicines cost money. Where is the money supposed to come from?
And so forth and so on.
QUOTE:
When you are forced to give what you have earned to someone else without your consent you setup a system where someone can force you to support the homeless, the hungry, the sick or the just plain lazy. Guess what you give up the real universal human right: To be free |
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I'm sorry, but what does that even mean? You pay a portion of your income to a group fund and vote for the people who are in charge of distributing it. Some of that fund will go to causes you support. Some of it won't. If it comforts you, assume that the dollars you put in go to the stuff you'd want it to. Based on "protect its citizens from outside harm," I'll guess that you're good with the Department of Defense (generally speaking), so just say all your tax dollars went to that and not a single penny went to healthcare subsidies. (When I was Active Duty, I used to joke that all my tax dollars went towards my next paycheck.) Can't help you with the uninsured motorists; that's up to your insurance provider.
But you live in a society where you can go where you want, do what you want to do and say what you want to say. Is disagreeing where a tiny portion of the money is spent really enough to justify bemoaning the loss of freedom?
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David Miller Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: April 16 2004 Posts: 3231
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Posted: June 26 2015 at 9:57am | IP Logged | 9
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I've been forced to support no end of shitty and evil policies. Republicans told us the Iraq War required an unlimited budget and an indefinite timescale. We can at least give the ACA 10 years and $1 trillion, which is less than the war cost.
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Marc M. Woolman Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: April 17 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 2094
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Posted: June 26 2015 at 2:51pm | IP Logged | 10
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Before any government spends one penny of tax dollars on military/defense, or any other service, it should be using taxes to fund universal healthcare for all of its citizens.
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Matt Reed Byrne Robotics Security
Robotmod
Joined: April 16 2004 Posts: 36364
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Posted: June 27 2015 at 2:14am | IP Logged | 11
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Joseph Gauthier wrote:
I have little faith in a voting population so vapid as to allow for the election and reelection of our current president... |
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I've ruminated on this particular line for several days. I've let it sink in, digested it and ultimately feel like I'm ready to shat out that I think it's utter bullshit.
Yeah. I said it.
You've called me out, personally, for both electing and then reelecting Obama. And I'm fine with that. Whatever. Different strokes. What I'm decidedly not fine with is calling me "vapid" for doing so, as if it was just on a whim that I did what I did with no further thought as to what it actually meant because you, Joseph Gauthier, know more about the cosmos than I could possibly imagine.
I'm somehow blind, ignorant and vapid. That if I'd only open my mind in the way that you have that I'd understand how wrong I am.
It's just that obvious, right?
Only...it's not.
I happen to believe that Obama has been a really good president. I actually believe he'll rest somewhere in the middle among all the presidents we've had but certainly won't be the Right's boogyman two weeks after he's stepped down. With Nixon and Harding leading the charge (there's HISTORY for ya) Obama will end up being a fine leader who led this country through more trying times than many a president before him. He had to clean up the Bush mess in Iraq, deal with a housing crisis he neither began nor propagated and, as a result, had to handle the worst financial crisis we, as Americans, have seen since the Great Depression. How did he do? Pretty fucking great given the circumstances. You may not like how he got where he was going, but we're better off now than we were in 2008.
Period.
I hope you'll excuse the hyperbole, but I'm not ashamed to admit that I'm not only proud that I was "vapid" enough to vote for Obama (TWICE!), but that I think he's done a ton for the American people while also realizing that much of it won't see fruition until well after he's out of office.
This was a long post, but I felt your insane assumption about why I voted the way I did deserved something more than a simple one-sentence reply.
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Tim O Neill Byrne Robotics Security
Joined: April 16 2004 Location: United States Posts: 10955
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Posted: June 27 2015 at 8:52am | IP Logged | 12
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Hear, hear!! Well said, Mr. Reed. President Obama is the first of my generation to hold the office, and I am an unabashed fan of his priorities, his public statements, and his ability to ride some of the most nonsensical attacks with grace and dignity.
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