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Michael Penn
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Posted: 28 January 2021 at 6:32am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Well, Steven... although I'm a lawyer, I'd rather not quibble about what's extended, except to say that at first you vehemently averred about the usage of Hales thus: "It's two or three lines!"... but then admitted the usage runs at least 21 lines. In Shakespeare, 21 lines is certainly more than enough to count as an extended metaphor. 

NB: scholars have found echoes of Hales elsewhere in Hamlet as well, e.g., where Serjeant Walsh, counsel for the defendant, discusses suicide in language both thematically and despite being originally French even stylistically similar to Hamlet's musing on his own possible suicide the "To be or not to be" soliloquy -- which is 33 lines, by the way.

The Hales case as I already noted was not translated into English until 1761, and Hamlet borrows from it not only liberally but at times literally, albeit the author himself could not have done so. Hales became over time "famous" and "celebrated" among legal professionals. It's a case used in teaching law students today.

The problematic question is not only how the author came to hear of Hales but how he came to adapt it literally without the capacity to read the original reported case.

(Another aside: Hales isn't the only "famous" case used in Hamlet, viz., Rex v. Saunders, reported in 1573.)
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John Byrne
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Posted: 28 January 2021 at 7:33am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Again we return to Shakespeare's familiarity with various volumes that had not at that time been translated into English--some of which had not even made it across the English Channel!
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Petter Myhr Ness
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Posted: 28 January 2021 at 9:13am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

I find the debate fascinating, and do try to read both sides with an open mind. 

But I'm still struck by the complete absence of literary paper trails regarding Stratford Will. Not even a hint of correspondence about writing with other writers of his time - which EVERY writer would do. Nothing was saved, not even by the recipients? Who SHOULD be numerous. Instead we have the coat of arms applications and the lawsuits. He just doesn't appear as a literary man. Theatre man, yes, but not literary. 

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John Byrne
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Posted: 28 January 2021 at 9:29am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

His connection to the theater can be a bit fuzzy. Without phones or fax machines, and with a four day ride between the towns, Shaxsper is seen to be conducting business in Stratford while busying himselff with (sometimes shady) theatrical pursuits in London.

A incident arose some time ago that illustrates the problem. Shaxsper was believed to have been involved in the purchase of a parcel of land near Stratford, but that was later shown to be another man, whose name actually was Shakespeare.

The Authorship Question intrigued me in large part because I have experienced such confusion in my own life. My IMDb page for years listed my contributions to a couple of Tilda Swinton movies, contributions which turned out to have been made by her then Significant Other, a Scottish artist named John Byrne. Meanwhile, for years my father had a print hanging in his office at City Hall, an Indian chief portrait by local painter John Byrne.* And then there was the British cartoonist, John Byrne, who has a disclaimer on his website saying he had not worked on the X-Men.

In four hundred years, how might those—and others—be conflated?

________

* When asked if his son had painted the portrait, Dad would smile sweetly and say “Yes, when he was 11.”

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Steven Brake
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Posted: 28 January 2021 at 10:31am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

@Michael P: Yes, sorry, you're right - my statement that it's just a couple of lines isn't fair, and it's a bit longer than that. But if you want to be pedantic, and going by the Arden Shakespeare, the allusion comes in lines 15-21 of Act V, scene 1 - is "extended" really the correct term? It certainly is for the discourse about Salic Law in Act I, scene 2, Henry V.

And again, I'm going by the editors notes in the Oxford and Arden editions of Hamlet, which respectively call the case "famous" and "celebrated". I'm not sure if this proves that the case wasn't obscure, or if it reflects poor scholarship on their part. 

Oh, and you're a lawyer who doesn't like to quibble? Is that possible! :)
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Steven Brake
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Posted: 28 January 2021 at 10:32am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

@Peter N: What correspondence do we have from other playwrights of the period? Letters from Marlowe, Kyd, etc?

The most solid figure we have is Jonson, who, unfortunately for alternative authorship theorists, backs up Shakespeare's authorship - ambivalent although he is about his literary talent - repeatedly.


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John Byrne
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Posted: 28 January 2021 at 10:39am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

The most solid figure we have is Jonson, who, unfortunately for alternative authorship theorists, backs up Shakespeare's authorship - ambivalent although he is about his literary talent - repeatedly.

•••

But, again, it’s all a bit fuzzy, isn’t it? Almost as if “Honest Ben” Jonson was trying to avoid an outright lie. The reference to the “sweet swan of Avon” in the First Folio. Shaxper? De Vere? Both lay claim to the river.

Just vague enough........

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Steven Brake
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Posted: 28 January 2021 at 10:46am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

JB wrote: His connection to the theater can be a bit fuzzy. 
------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------------------------
William Shakespeare - with his name spelled precisely that way - is the second name listed among the people founding The King's Men in the royal patent of 1603.

Also in the list are John Heminges and Henry Condell.

Heminges and Condell are named in the will of William Shakspeare of Stratford Upon Avon.

Heminges and Condell spend years collecting plays and publishing them in the First Folio, to, in their own words, " "onely to keepe the memory of so worthy a Friend, & Fellow alive, as was our S H A K E S P E A R E". 

Note the spelling.

Jonson writes a commendatory verse, spelling the name as Shakspeare, praising him as the Swan of Avon.

It beggars belief that this is not the same man. It is simply not possible to claim that a pseudonym used by another just got mixed up with someone else.

If you want to argue that Shakespeare fooled people for years - decades, actually - fine. But this also means conceding that he must have been literate, in order to have been so convincing.

If you want to argue that Heminges, Condell and Jonson et al
knew the truth about Shakespeare's supposed authorship, and went to lengths to maintain the fiction after his death - fine. Although it begs the question of why such extraordinary labours were necessary. And what rewards were given for having undertaken them? Are there any otherwise inexplicable titles being bestowed, or properties being granted, to any of the three for services rendered?




Edited by Steven Brake on 28 January 2021 at 11:28am
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Steven Brake
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Posted: 28 January 2021 at 10:51am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

JB wrote: But, again, it’s all a bit fuzzy, isn’t it? Almost as if “Honest Ben” Jonson was trying to avoid an outright lie. The reference to the “sweet swan of Avon” in the First Folio. Shaxper? De Vere? Both lay claim to the river.
------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------

So that means that Jonson writes a poem commending Mr William Shakspear (not "Shaxper", which I don't think is used at all in the First Folio; Shakespeare is, though, at least twice) , the Swan of Avon.

The former is Oxford's pseudonym, while the latter a reference to a property that the Avon briefly passed by. This was mistaken to mean Mr William Shakespeare, who was born, largely lived, and eventually died in Stratford-Upon-Avon.

What are the odds of that happening?


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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 28 January 2021 at 12:35pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Steven: With regards to the signatures, what you've proven is the fluidity of spelling of the period. You haven't, as you've conceded, shown any evidence of Will of Stratford using the spelling "Shaxper", with the disingenuous suggestion that it somehow got muddled with the supposed pseudonym "Shakespeare".

**

What you've done is dragged the conversation down to attacking my motives.

I have provided evidence that "Shaxper" is the correct pronunciation of the Stratford man's name and was a spelling used.

I also provide evidence that "Shakespeare" was not the correct pronunciation ...until it was.

What anyone infers from that is open to debate. What is not kind is to accuse me personally of being "disingenuous" for bringing it up.


Your style of debate is to refuse to acknowledge the validity of my points. That's tiresome and I'm tapping out.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 28 January 2021 at 1:12pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

William Shakespeare - with his name spelled precisely that way - is the second name listed among the people founding The King's Men in the royal patent of 1603.

••

And this discussion moves closer and closer to pointless as you steadfastly refuse to accept that the Stratford Man was not known as "Shakespeare". That "Shakespeare" in fact may have been a complete invention, created to provide a byline for the Work.

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John Byrne
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Posted: 28 January 2021 at 1:12pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Your style of debate is to refuse to acknowledge the validity of my points. That's tiresome and I'm tapping out.

••

Good idea.

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