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Wayne Osborne
Byrne Robotics Member
Manhunter
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3817
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| Posted: 06 January 2006 at 1:57pm | IP Logged | 1
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"(Wow! If only they could have raped her first! That would have been Keeeeewl!!) "
And somewhere a lightbulb appears over JMS' head.............
WO
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Thomas Mets
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 September 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 898
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| Posted: 06 January 2006 at 1:58pm | IP Logged | 2
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But the illusion kicked in not long after, when it became obvious that
the book was going to be around for a while. And, legend has it, at
least one of the reasons Ditko left was a disagreement with Stan over
the aging of the characters. Ditko maintains to this day that Parker
should never be more than 16.
********************************************************** *****************
Yet he's credited as plotter of the story in which Peter graduates High
School, and the Master Planner trilogy in which Peter enters college
(incidentally my favorite Lee/ Ditko Spider-Man tale).
Lee and Ditko also created the character. Roger Stern had one of
the best runs on Spider-Man ever. How many big changes did
he make to Peter Parker's life? None he just told fantastic
stories.
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Roger Stern also didn't try to retell earlier stories, which is why he
pit Spider-Man against villains he felt were underdeveloped (ie- The
Vulture), and villains Spider-Man hadn't fought before (Jack O'Lantern,
Thunderball, Cobra, Hyde, and Juggernaut) in addition to telling
stories that hadn't been told with Spider-Man before (the dreams issue,
"The Kid Who Collected Spider-Man")
Spider-Man by Lee & Ditko was great because they refused to stick
to the "rules". They took chances, they made changes, they let him age,
they gave the best cast of villains ever. There was no "illusion of
change" when Stan & Steve were at the helm. The problem came long
after when fear set in and there was a lack of confidence in doing
something that actually changed anything. I believe that Marvel should
be taking more chances (and no, I don't mean let's rape Mary Jane).
Better to piss off half of fandom but make the other half think you've
made the greatest comics of all time, than to make bland, forgettable
comics that no one remembers or remotely cares about.
********************************************************** ***********
Amen (as long as the stories & artwork remain good, and the characterizations remain consistent.)
Oh, for Christ's sake.
What is it with some writers that they look at a female comic book
character and think, "I know--rape!"
Tell me, is this "startling revelation" germane to the story?
********************************************************** **********
It is. She was arrested for murdering a man who is believed to have
raped her (her refusal to take a rape kit confused her attorney), and
escaped with the aid of the man's brother, who committed the murder.
The brother talks about how he was raped by the man, and how Felicia
wouldn't understand it. Which inspires her comment at the end of the
issue.
This is much too dark for a Spider-Man story, although the book was marketed as having the Black Cat as the main character.
Before "The Other", sales on AMAZING were dropping fast and MARVEL
KNIGHT SPIDER-MAN were the lowest of any monthly Spider-title
ever. I haven't heard about any creator changes on those books,
so let's see where things stand a year from now.
********************************************************** *********
Sales of Marvel Knights Spider-Man were worse than the sales of the
last (pre- "Gathering of the Five") issues of Sensational Spider-Man,
or issues of Webspinners, or Tangled Web? I call bullshit.
Also, Hudlin's off Marvel Knights Spider-Man after "The Other" &
Peter David and Mike Wieringo started their run of FN Spider-Man wth
"The Other" so there have been creative changes.
And Hudlin shouldn't have been on Marvel Knights Spider-Man in the
first place. I'm astonished that someone at Marvel thought that he was
the best guy available to write Spider-Man stories for an year. Bendis,
Kirkman, Vaughan, Slott, Priest, and all others were unavailable?
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Rob Hewitt
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 11 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 10182
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| Posted: 06 January 2006 at 2:02pm | IP Logged | 3
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but nothing he did actually changed who Daredevil was.
****
The Catholic elements alone seem like a big change to me. Daredevil seems much more morose a person than before. Daredevil before seemed Spidey-lite in many ways. I know a lot of it is the tone of the book, but I do feel the character was changed fundamentally.
He seems a much more trotured fellow post-Miller than pre-Miller. I could be confusing others who followed Miller though
and of course Karen Page was also changed dramatically IMO.
Edited by Rob Hewitt on 06 January 2006 at 2:03pm
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132538
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| Posted: 06 January 2006 at 2:04pm | IP Logged | 4
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but nothing he did actually changed who Daredevil was.++++ The Catholic elements alone seem like a big change to me. **** Nothing in Matt's Catholicism contradicted what we had already seen. In fact, given his background, it made sense (at least as much as revealing Ben Grimm is Jewish).
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Rob Hewitt
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 11 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 10182
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| Posted: 06 January 2006 at 2:07pm | IP Logged | 5
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I never knew Ben Grimm was Jewish either!!!
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Glenn Greenberg
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6746
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| Posted: 06 January 2006 at 2:07pm | IP Logged | 6
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<<As far as the 80's Spider-Man goes, I'll add in my two cents that
DeFalco and Frenz had some pretty good stories produced in that era as
well.>>
Indeed. Looking back, and this is just from my own point of view, I think
Tom and Ron's run suffered only from the fact that they immediately
followed Roger and JR Jr.
I absolutely loved the Roger/JR Jr. run and was absolutely crushed when
they left. When Tom and Ron came in and did their own thing, instead of
slavishly trying to copy Roger and JR Jr., the book no longer felt "right" to
me. (Keep in mind, I was like 13 or 14 at the time.)
A few years back, when I was working with Roger on the HOBGOBLIN
LIVES limited series, I reread all of the Hobgoblin stories for reference
purposes, and found myself rereading the bulk of the DeFalco/Frenz run.
And I found myself saying, "Wow, this is really good stuff--I didn't
appreciate it NEARLY enough when it first came out!"
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Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security
Robotmod
Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 35762
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| Posted: 06 January 2006 at 2:09pm | IP Logged | 7
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Read the series before Miller came aboard. DD wasn't really a light-hearted character at all. His real period of being "Spidey-lite" was early, early in his publishing history when he was still wearing the yellow and red suit. Since then, however, he's never been the kind of guy to crack wise nor has he ever really been as carefree as Spider-Man. The addition of the Catholic elements aren't a big change. Did we know what denomination he was? How did it fundamentally change who Matt Murdock is? The biggest change, to me, was the addition of the Stick back story and having had a history with Electra that we had never heard about, but again, these don't seem like fundamental changes to who Matt Murdock, aka Daredevil, is.
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Rob Hewitt
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 11 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 10182
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| Posted: 06 January 2006 at 2:12pm | IP Logged | 8
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I just think everone dropped the Hobgoblin stuff. Stern didn't put in hardly any hints at all that the guy was the guy he said it was, and DeFalco really didn't either. Since he has said it wasn't Leeds but it was so obvious it was Leeds in his stories.
and then to finally reveal it after both those guys left, in a flashback after Leeds had been killed! (which as we know didn't even make sense as it was shown how Leeds died).
I don't think that was planned out by either of them well enough. I don;t care if it is a twist and isn't Leeds, but it shouldn't come out of almost nowhere.
(Yes, true Norman Osborn also came out of nowhere).
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Darragh Greene
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 March 2005
Location: Ireland
Posts: 1812
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| Posted: 06 January 2006 at 2:13pm | IP Logged | 9
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I don't think FM changed Matt's character; rather he enriched it with
fresh details, none of which contradicted that which had come before.
Even at the end of the Kingpin's malign deconstruction of the man related
in Born Again, FM left the character essentially the same hero, only
stronger and wiser for the suffering he'd come through. That's a comics
job consumately well done.
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Rob Hewitt
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 11 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 10182
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| Posted: 06 January 2006 at 2:18pm | IP Logged | 10
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I see it differently, but I know what it is like when FM is discussed. I see him changing a lot about Daredevil the person-and incidentally making far more changes to Karen Page then JMS made to Gwen Stacy.
I also see him making changes to Batman in a similar way. While it could be argued that was just an "Elseworld," the All-Star book, and other comments he has made about the character, make me believe he sees Batman differently than i do, but not so different than many of those who make him (and I don't like this term) the Psycho-Ninja.
I think he's done a lot of stories that many posters here complain about when done by others. Ninjas. Secret ID reveals. Dark stories. Stories out of costume. Changing of characters and supporting characters. Adding lots of back info not revealed before. (to me Stick is similar enough to the Spider-totem-an unnecessary complication).
Edited by Rob Hewitt on 06 January 2006 at 2:20pm
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Emery Calame
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5773
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| Posted: 06 January 2006 at 2:18pm | IP Logged | 11
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Maybe they should write a story where Dr. Smythe comes back from the dead, kidnaps aunt May and turns her into a killer cyborg...the final Spider-Slayer. And she beats Peter senseless, rips off his arm, pours gas on him and sets him on fire. Then the nuke in her chest detonates and takes out one third of New York City.
I bet that would sell some issues...
EDIT: The cover would just be a pin-up of Dagger and the Black Widow making out...
Edited by Emery Calame on 06 January 2006 at 2:25pm
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Jason Fulton
Byrne Robotics Member
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Posts: 3938
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| Posted: 06 January 2006 at 2:20pm | IP Logged | 12
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but I know what it is like when FM is discussed
Rob Hewitt strikes again!
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Topic Closed)
