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Michael Myers
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Posted: 12 November 2008 at 6:19pm | IP Logged | 1  

"One thing I've found in regards to racism is that it is depressingly common to every group of people I've met. I've heard racist stuff from muslims about black people, from asians about white people, from white people to not white people, a small segment of every group seems to hate another group for being different and only time and exposure to other races and cultures is going to diminish the problem until hopefully it is so diminished it vanishes...."


Good post, Steve. 
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Michael Myers
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Posted: 12 November 2008 at 6:20pm | IP Logged | 2  

You've been hearing it for the last two months, Joe.

Edited by Michael Myers on 12 November 2008 at 6:20pm
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F. Ron Miller
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Posted: 12 November 2008 at 7:41pm | IP Logged | 3  

Turns out that the president elect can actually draw --kinda, sorta.

LINK

Wonder if he does commissions?
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Mike O'Brien
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Posted: 12 November 2008 at 8:43pm | IP Logged | 4  

Oh!  I like it!

I see Ted Kennedy and Dianne Feinstein, but who are the other two supposed to be?

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Neil Lindholm
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Posted: 12 November 2008 at 8:48pm | IP Logged | 5  

Joe, a bailout might help one group of people but it will hurt another group of people. The money used to bailout failing companies might have been used to purchase something from another company or it might not have been taken from a person in the form of taxes and he might have used that money to buy from someone else but now he can't. Economics is connected to everything. Short-term thinking is the worse think you can do with economics.

The bailouts are a horrible idea. If the car companies cannot compete or survive, let them fail. Someone else will show up and build cars that people want. This is the free-market system, which unfortunately has never really been tried in the modern world. Government should not be involved.

The following is from "Economics in One Lesson" by Henry Hazlitt, a very famous economics book that should be read by all politicians.


Let us begin with the simplest illustration possible: let us, emulating Bastiat, choose a broken pane of glass.

A young hoodlum, say, heaves a brick through the window of a baker’s shop. The shopkeeper runs out furious, but the boy is gone. A crowd gathers, and begins to stare with quiet satisfaction at the gaping hole in the window and the shattered glass over the bread and pies. After a while the crowd feels the need for philosophic reflection. And several of its members are almost certain to remind each other or the baker that, after all, the misfortune has its bright side. It will make business for some glazier. As they begin to think of this they elaborate upon it. How much does a new plate glass window cost? Two hundred and fifty dollars? That will be quite a sum. After all, if windows were never broken, what would happen to the glass business? Then, of course, the thing is endless. The glazier will have $250 more to spend with other merchants, and these in turn will have $250 more to spend with still other merchants, and so ad infinitum. The smashed window will go on providing money and employment in ever-widening circles. The logical conclusion from all this would be, if the crowd drew it, that the little hoodlum who threw the brick, far from being a public menace, was a public benefactor.

Now let us take another look. The crowd is at least right in its first conclusion. This little act of vandalism will in the first instance mean more business for some glazier. The glazier will be no more unhappy to learn of the incident than an undertaker to learn of a death. But the shopkeeper will be out $250 that he was planning to spend for a new suit. Because he has had to replace a window, he will have to go without the suit (or some equivalent need or luxury). Instead of having a window and $250 he now has merely a window. Or, as he was planning to buy the suit that very afternoon, instead of having both a window and a suit he must be content with the window and no suit. If we think of him as a part of the community, the community has lost a new suit that might otherwise have come into being, and is just that much poorer.

The glazier’s gain of business, in short, is merely the tailor’s loss of business. No new “employment” has been added. The people in the crowd were thinking only of two parties to the transaction, the baker and the glazier. They had forgotten the potential third party involved, the tailor. They forgot him precisely because he will not now enter the scene. They will see the new window in the next day or two. They will never see the extra suit, precisely because it will never be made. They see only what is immediately visible to the eye.




Edited by Neil Lindholm on 12 November 2008 at 8:56pm
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Christopher Alan Miller
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Posted: 12 November 2008 at 8:52pm | IP Logged | 6  

Looks like Chuck Schumer and Harry Reid to me.
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Mike O'Brien
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Posted: 12 November 2008 at 9:01pm | IP Logged | 7  

Whereas I certainly agree with what you said, Neil - I do think bailouts are a bad idea - and I do think companies should rise and fall on their own merrits, and my whole political belief system is NOT sticking up for the big guy (how could I sleep at night justifying giving a hand-out to a huge mega-corp?  I couldn't.  Nor do I care about: Rich People.  White People.  Straight People.  Men.  Christians.  Etc.  Anyone in a position of power?  They don't need my concern or help.  They're already doing ok.   That's my philosophy.  When any of those become the minority?  Then I start worrying about them.)

Having said that... let me play devil's advocate here - these theories about letting companies rise and fall on their merrits are very good - perfect even - in theory.  However, in reality, there are communities whose survival is based on those companies thriving.  Whereas it doesn't seem fair to reward failure, keeping the companies open assures that jobs are maintained and communities thrive.

In other words - theories about free market are amusing to people chit-chatting on a message board, but are less amusing to people whose futures depend on it.

Now - having said THAT... let me take the other side.  Why are we rewarding these companies who fight to destroy said communities anyway?  When has General Motors ever looked out for the Community?  It's happened, but not in my lifetime.

What's more - there is something to be said for a community being resiliant - that they shouldn't have to be so invested in auto-manufacturing, and can move to some other type of business. 

Again - that's a good theory - what happens in reality when that doesn't come to pass?   Do we watch a community wither and die?  Not everyone in a community is going to be the next Henry Ford or Bill Gates, and not everyone in a community has the ability to pick up and move to a new community to start a new job.  And what new jobs will they take?

Don't get me wrong - I'm not suggesting a nanny-state where these people are provied for, but before we suggest theories about free market, we would do well to consider the human element and what we can do to assure a strong America.  Obama's team seems to be beefing up on FDR's work - maybe a new CCC or WPA in the communities hard hit - where they can learn a new skill, improve America, and make a living all in one well swoop.  Something like that? 

Just some thoughts. 

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Neil Lindholm
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Posted: 12 November 2008 at 9:28pm | IP Logged | 8  

I am reminded of the Newfoundland fisherman who, when discovering that the cod fishery had collapsed, used the money provided by the government for retraining to take courses in net repair and fishing boat restoration. Have the workers in the automotive industry been busy in the evenings working on retraining themselves, or are they willing to relocate in order to find work? Areas in Canada are filled with Newfoundlanders who have moved to different parts of the country in order to find work. I moved to China for that reason.

As for the human element, sure it sounds terrible to make the workers suffer for the idiocy of their company owners and the government who continue with antiquated business models but if we keep on propping these companies up, how can someone else with a better idea compete? Let the automotive industries collapse and let the market run unfettered and some bright boy will have a new car that people actually want to drive on the market in no time.

My home town was a little mining community about an hour from Vancouver. For the past 90 years it was a company town and its age was showing. Last year it was opened for private ownership. The changes were amazing.

I am always leery when government gets involved in areas they have no business (no pun intended) in.

Man, I didn't want to get involved in this one, since most people feel that it is government's duty to interfere in business and find the idea of a truly free-market system horrifying. Unfortunately, with the system we have now, changing to a free-market system would cause chaos. I really can't see any solution other than letting it run the course to inevitable collapse.
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Neil Lindholm
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Posted: 12 November 2008 at 9:37pm | IP Logged | 9  

Was not implying you were one of the people I was picking on, Mike. After reading my post, it sounds a little condescending and I didn't mean it like that. I am reminded of a quote by Ed Broadbent, the ex-leader of the NDP , a socialist party in Canada. He was put in charge of a committee to look into the practice of shoddy construction practices in British Columbia. One of his conclusions was that the buyers should have done more research before purchasing their condos and that the government was not responsible to bail them out of the repair damages. His line? (paraphrased) "People seem to think that the government should solve all problems. They should take care of themselves" Now, after a political lifetime of his party using the philosophy of the governement to take care of everyone, he was pissed when people actually believed his philosophy. Priceless. 
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Joe Zhang
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Posted: 12 November 2008 at 9:54pm | IP Logged | 10  

The issue of letting Detroit fail is a "SPARTA -- PREPARE FOR GLORY!" moment for free market capitalists. Who can ever doubt the degree of their fanaticism from now on?

The rest of us would do well to ponder : what would happen to our country, the biggest consumer of automobiles, stopped manufacturing cars? The conservatives rail about energy self-sufficiency and ANWAR. But now they're basically saying it's just fine for the Japanese and Europeans to take over our entire domestic market? Duh.


Edited by Joe Zhang on 12 November 2008 at 9:55pm
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Neil Lindholm
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Posted: 12 November 2008 at 10:03pm | IP Logged | 11  

Joe, do you understand the concept of competition? Why would the US stop making cars? Sure, they may stop making cars that people are not buying but if they make cars that people actually want and with the the same or better quality as the Asian cars and at a better price, they will once again have a large market share and the buyers of these automobiles will have superior products at a reasonable price.

Or we can prop up the car manufacturers and have a fleet of Ladas and Yugos and Skodas. Wonderful.

And your first paragraph make no sense.

I'm going to lunch.
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Mike O'Brien
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Posted: 12 November 2008 at 10:25pm | IP Logged | 12  

Oh, I get ya, Neil.  Good points.
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