What does that have to do with the years of appeasement leading up to the war?

Ah, but that avoids the question - did he know?

Oh, and while we're at it - let's introduce some thoughts on this - what's wrong with talking to people and seeing what they want? - I think most people understand that, while it was a insane bug-fuck reaction - 9/11 didn't happen because OBL "hated our freedoms", but rather because we pissed all over the hornet's nest by building military bases on Islamic Holy Land.  Now, I get that there's no way to talk sense into, say, OBL, but if we understood what we were getting into... well... was it really worth it to put that base there?  

In other words - this bull-headed F'em and let's see what happens policy has so far resulted in 3,000+ dead on 9/11 and 4,000+ dead in Iraq and Afghanistan and most of the world hating us.  What someone like Obama is suggesting ISN'T let's cave in to terrorists and sell out Israel, but rather something more subtle and nuanced like - "This cowboy diplomacy is backfiring on us - why don't we go to the table, open up talks, get some information, and make intellegent decisions, instead of just trying to show the world how big our junk is?"

I know where I stand on that one.

I doubt the Daily Show cherry-picked those comments.  Those comments CAME cherry-picked from the media, which is a subtext I alluded to.  But there is informational value in HOW dumb the dumb comments you can find are.  My dumbest comment ever, when I was twenty-three: "They slice the roast beef thin because then it takes less slices to weigh the same amount."*  But I never thought someone named Damien was the son of the devil.  Because, y'know, his name's Damien.

*Been trying to figure that one out for seventeen years.  When I go home I can still hear it echoing off the city borders, but I fear it will break free and head out into space one day, dooming mankind.

but rather because we pissed all over the hornet's nest by building military bases on Islamic Holy Land

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Bases that we were asked to build to protect a muslim country from invasion by another muslim country.

And those base were far from any holy sites.

Oh, I agree, Geoff, but I was trying to make a quick point.

But hoenstly, if we weren't sticking our nose in - they would care less about us or our freedoms, and would be focusing on Israel.

Having said that - Israel is our friend and ally, so why not support and help them?

Ok, I agree with that, but then I think - maybe there's a way to do it that doesn't, as I noted - piss all over the hornet's nest. 

This was obviously bad planning on our part.  We needed more cold-war-esque planning and less pee-pee wagging.

And Christopher - interesting - I'll be happy to admit that I'm wrong if you can show me something that says otherwise, but I've only ever heard what I explained in my post about bases on holy lands.  I'm willing to be corrected on that.

"More cold-war-esque planning and less pee-pee wagging."

That sounds like a winning campaign slogan to me!

Here's a map of Saudi Arabia.

http://www.lonelyplanet.com/maps/middle-east/saudi-arabia/

We had troops along the Kuwait border and the Riyadh area hundreds of miles from Mecca and Medina. Most left after the 1st gulf war and only 5,000 remained in 2001. Hardly an occupation.

It's got the intellectual thought of Obama and the crude bar-room ramblings of Clinton.

It's perfect!

Yes, correct, we agree on that point.

Allow me to clarify a point - I'm certainly not saying OBL's plot was rational or rightious or ok - it was bug-fuck insane - but I do stress that it was a reaction to our actions and involvements (well intentioned, by the way), and not a simple matter of "hating our freedoms".