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Joe Zhang Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 12843
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| Posted: 15 May 2008 at 10:41pm | IP Logged | 1
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I've never seen or met an "axis" before. Who has? They should call it the Merry-Go-Round of Evil.
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Bob Neill Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 03 December 2007 Posts: 877
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| Posted: 16 May 2008 at 12:00am | IP Logged | 2
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Googled 'axis definitions':
Definitions of axis on the Web:
- a straight line through a body or figure that satisfies certain conditions
- the center around which something rotates
- the main stem or central part about which plant organs or plant parts such as branches are arranged
- in World War II the alliance of Germany and Italy in 1936 which later included Japan and other nations; "the Axis opposed the Allies in World War II"
- bloc: a group of countries in special alliance
- the 2nd cervical vertebra; serves as a pivot for turning the head
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Michael Myers Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 28 December 2004 Posts: 831
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| Posted: 16 May 2008 at 10:19am | IP Logged | 3
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"I'm sorry but I don't see the whole "hating America's freedoms"
arguement. There are plenty of countries with as much or more freedoms
that the US that OBL didn't attack. I think its more hating the US'
Foreign Policy."
David, I think it has everything to do with the US being the best target in terms of impact. Nothing symbolizes the "West" and the threat to traditional Islamic fundamentalism like the United States. BTW, "as much or more freedoms"...how so? You aren't relying on Knut's flawed dialectic argument from farther up-thread to support such a notion, are you?
Edited by Michael Myers on 16 May 2008 at 10:21am
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Al Cook Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 21 December 2004 Posts: 12735
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| Posted: 16 May 2008 at 10:34am | IP Logged | 4
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I can't begin to see how anyone can buy the "hating America's freedoms"
argument. It doesn't even begin to hold water.
America is the single-most agressive country in the world when it comes to
foreign policy. That provokes all kinds of responses. Including the
unreasonable, and the horrific.
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Mike O'Brien Byrne Robotics Member
Official JB Historian
Joined: 18 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 10927
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| Posted: 16 May 2008 at 10:35am | IP Logged | 5
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I would agree with that, Michael, except that there were attacks in a number of nations from the late 90s to today - the US was just one of them, so...
I'm not disagreeing with you, per se, Michael, but I do stand by my thought that it's way more nuanced than what we heard from the Administration and the media.
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Michael Myers Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 28 December 2004 Posts: 831
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| Posted: 16 May 2008 at 10:52am | IP Logged | 6
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Really, Al? More aggressive than North Korea threatening to reduce South Korea to "ashes" at the slightest provocation or turn Seoul into a "sea of fire"? Really?
The above is an off-the-cuff cite, but I can certainly trot out any number of other examples, Al. Keep in mind, Al, we're not a nation of 33 milion with a GDP just topping 1 trillion. No, we're a truly diverse nation of more than 300 million with a GDP topping 13 trillion...there is no way we can not play a larger role in world affairs than, say Canada or Norway.
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Mike O'Brien Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 18 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 10927
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| Posted: 16 May 2008 at 10:54am | IP Logged | 7
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Or when North Korea said they would annihillate Iran and ....
Oh, crap, that was Hillary. Meh! North Korea, Hillary, same difference.
I kid, I kid!! Put down the pitchforks!
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Tom French Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 07 January 2005 Location: United States Posts: 4154
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| Posted: 16 May 2008 at 11:01am | IP Logged | 8
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It's fun to hear Hillary talk tough, though, isn't it? Reminds me of those guys who couldn't "walk the walk" but would open their mouths anyway. Sorry, I'm just not threatened by her.
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Mike O'Brien Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 18 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 10927
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| Posted: 16 May 2008 at 11:04am | IP Logged | 9
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Good man, Tom!
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Michael Myers Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 28 December 2004 Posts: 831
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| Posted: 16 May 2008 at 11:10am | IP Logged | 10
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You've misunderstood the trend of my post, Mike. I don't buy the "hating our freedoms" routine any more than you. What I was intimating is the simple fact that if I were planning some violent event guaranteed to garner world attention, then, providing I might overcome the hurdles such a target presented, what better target than the preeminent Western super-power of the United States? Is there another nation which so stands out as being intrinsically opposed to the traditional notions of Islam and which is also a nation against which an attack cannot simply receive a wistful shake of the head and a vague promise to do "more"?
I'm simply looking at it as a question of relative pr value received. What I don't buy for an instant is the validity of the rationalizations, like your own, offered up imploring some greater understanding of the difficulties some people have in coming to terms with life in the 21st century. Such rationalizations are little more than a circle-jerk of rebounding recriminations going back over thousands of years.
Edited by Michael Myers on 16 May 2008 at 11:13am
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Mike O'Brien Byrne Robotics Member
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Joined: 18 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 10927
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| Posted: 16 May 2008 at 11:26am | IP Logged | 11
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Your logic is spot-on, Michael - but the fact that so many other areas have been attacked somewhat diminishes the idea that America stands out.
I don't think we're disagreeing at all, but I think there are some paths that we're diverging on.
I do agree with your closing ideas and how the attackers are all evil.
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Knut Robert Knutsen Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 22 September 2006 Posts: 7374
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| Posted: 16 May 2008 at 11:49am | IP Logged | 12
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"BTW, "as much or more freedoms"...how so? You aren't relying on Knut's flawed dialectic argument from farther up-thread to support such a notion, are you?"
I was answering a question from another poster about a book that claimed Scandinavian countries were "more free" than the US. I referred to International studies (some by the UN or other reputable organizations) quoted in major norwegian newspapers that rank Scandinavian countries very highly on some "good" lists, and while I don't have a specific web-link, I tried to provide a context by presenting some of the underlying presumptions of surveys that rank us as "more free".
As far as I recall, aside from politically and legally defined freedoms, these studies presumed that certain economic factors had practical implications for how much freedom we have in practice as opposed to in theory.
I agree with these presumptions. No surprise there, as I have stated before I'm a social democrat and in socialism freedom and morality are seen as heavily influenced by economic conditions.
While you are free to consider the argument flawed, I'm not presenting it to convince you, but to give a context for the claim made by others that I was asked about. I'd be interested to know, though, what specifically you see as a flaw? Do you not consider the wealth or poverty of a person, their economic conditions taken as a whole as influencing that person's personal experience of freedom? That is after all the core presumption that I was presenting above.
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