I certainly was not proud of my President when he lied under oath.

If you are talking about Clinton, I too was not proud of him when he did that.

I am always proud of country, I am not always proud of my government.

I was thinking about this and I disagree with this statement, because, I look at this issue as this. OK if you have a child and that child steals and acts out of control, you do not say, you are proud of them, you may say you love them, but you say , you are NOT proud of them.  I love this country, but I am not always proud of it. Because I think it is the action that it takes, that gives you pride and even though it was the government that have acted badly, the majority of this country supported it , twice.

Here is the definition of the word proud:

Adjective

S: (adj) gallant, lofty, majestic, proud (having or displaying great dignity or nobility) "a gallant pageant"; "lofty ships"; "majestic cities"; "proud alpine peaks"

It has nothing to do with balls and everything to do with intelligence.  You can't change the nation if you can't get into office.  That's one problem I have with my fellow gays.  They want the politicians to come out and support everything they want 100% and do it on the record.   That person wouldn't have a shot in hell of ever being elected if they did that.  Pure common sense.

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And THEN they can't do anything because they said they wouldn't.

You can't be a leader and a politician.

On Hillary's push for Vice-Presidency:

http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=3906861& ; ;cl=8136666&ch=4226716&src=news

I was thinking about this and I disagree with this statement, because, I look at this issue as this. OK if you have a child and that child steals and acts out of control, you do not say, you are proud of them, you may say you love them, but you say , you are NOT proud of them.  I love this country, but I am not always proud of it.

And I thought what I said was so reasonable. :o)

Here's the thing.  Your employing an absoloutist analogy.  It all or nothing. Don't think of your country as a child, think of it as your family.  There may be things your family has done which you are not proud of but overall you are more proud than not.  In your analogy the child does nothing right -- do you feel our Government does nothing right? So much so you are not proud to be identified as citizen of our country?

It has nothing to do with balls and everything to do with intelligence.  You can't change the nation if you can't get into office.  That's one problem I have with my fellow gays.  They want the politicians to come out and support everything they want 100% and do it on the record.   That person wouldn't have a shot in hell of ever being elected if they did that.  Pure common sense.

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And THEN they can't do anything because they said they wouldn't.

We are talking politicians aren't we?  What politician has ever done every thing they said they would or wouldn't do while campaigning?

We are talking politicians aren't we?  What politician has ever done every thing they said they would or wouldn't do while campaigning?

At some point, if it matters to you, you need to ask those that seek to lead to do so.

That's one problem I have with my fellow gays.  They want the politicians to come out and support everything they want 100% and do it on the record.   That person wouldn't have a shot in hell of ever being elected if they did that.  Pure common sense.

Not wanting to hijack this thread, Scott, but it occurs to me that your problems with your "fellow gays" might be more yours than theirs.  There's a BIG difference between being a realist and being a cynic. 

I live in Washington, DC.  Politics is part of daily life here.  But somehow, I manage to live my life openly and without fear.  If someone has a problem with me, they can discuss it with me like a rational human being.  If someone wants to spew hate at me, they can try.  I'm a pretty big guy and people tend to be pretty intimidated by me.  (I confess I play that to my advantage.)  I'm proud of who I am and refuse to play games with ignorance.  Why is it so hard to imagine there could be politicians who'd do the same?  I don't want someone to agree with my views 100% -- putting me even further from your "fellow gays" -- but I sure would like to see someone strong enough to have an opinion.  And that means more than lip service to a magazine.  Hillary Clinton represents NY, for God's sake -- why shouldn't she be concerned with gay rights?  Why aren't you?

Now, no one's going to get anything done politically until they take a stand.  "Common sense" as you so glibly summarize reads more like "fear" to me. 

What are you afraid of, Scott?  Maybe having a little hope for your fellows... or would you rather just live being repressed for the rest of your life?

All I'm saying is if you start out compromising it's easy to keep compromising.

I hope my wife continues to feel that way . . .

And I thought what I said was so reasonable. :o)

Here's the thing.  Your employing an absoloutist analogy.  It all or nothing. Don't think of your country as a child, think of it as your family.  There may be things your family has done which you are not proud of but overall you are more proud than not.  In your analogy the child does nothing right -- do you feel our Government does nothing right? So much so you are not proud to be identified as citizen of our country?

Actually I am not employing an absoloutist analogy, an all or nothing. I said I sometimes am very proud of this country but sometimes I am not. But I always love this country. I would wish to live no where else.  I didn't say the child did nothing right, I said his behavior for stealing and acting out, was something to NOT be proud of.  And hell if we are using my family I can safely say I love my family, but I am not always proud of them.

I do think our Government does a lot right, I am very proud of some of their actions. For this I do take pride in being an American, but that does not mean, I am always proud of this country.