:0) See I told you I should never come on the Political thread.

That's one problem I have with my fellow gays.  They want the politicians to come out and support everything they want 100% and do it on the record.   That person wouldn't have a shot in hell of ever being elected if they did that.  Pure common sense.

Not wanting to hijack this thread, Scott, but it occurs to me that your problems with your "fellow gays" might be more yours than theirs.  There's a BIG difference between being a realist and being a cynic. 

I live in Washington, DC.  Politics is part of daily life here.  But somehow, I manage to live my life openly and without fear.  If someone has a problem with me, they can discuss it with me like a rational human being.  If someone wants to spew hate at me, they can try.  I'm a pretty big guy and people tend to be pretty intimidated by me.  (I confess I play that to my advantage.)  I'm proud of who I am and refuse to play games with ignorance.  Why is it so hard to imagine there could be politicians who'd do the same?  I don't want someone to agree with my views 100% -- putting me even further from your "fellow gays" -- but I sure would like to see someone strong enough to have an opinion.  And that means more than lip service to a magazine.  Hillary Clinton represents NY, for God's sake -- why shouldn't she be concerned with gay rights?  Why aren't you?

Now, no one's going to get anything done politically until they take a stand.  "Common sense" as you so glibly summarize reads more like "fear" to me. 

What are you afraid of, Scott?  Maybe having a little hope for your fellows... or would you rather just live being repressed for the rest of your life?

You've really, really misread me.  I have no fears at all in regard to being gay.  I'm a very happy, out gay man.  My friends, family, coworkers, etc. all know.  I've been extremely lucky.  Being honest and logical doesn't equate to being cynical.  I've never been discriminated against or the victim of a hate crime since coming out.

But...

Some of my family, most of my co-workers, some of my straight friends, etc. all, when asked, admit they would never support gay marriage.  Many are against gays adopting children.  They are polite, friendly and rational.  They don't treat me any differently than any straight person. Yet, those are the people who would never give a candidate who came out and fully supported 100% equality for gays.  So, it is being a realist, not a cynic.

And I am concerned with gay rights, but as an American who happens to be gay, being gay doesn't define who I am.  For me there are more important issues than gay rights.  Compared to how long it took women and blacks to get full, equal rights, gays are moving at rocket speed.  We'll get their eventually as long as we don't cut off our noses to spite our faces.

By the way, I'm a really large guy too so I can relate in that way as well.  :P

Fair enough, I hear you, I think we're arguing semantics.

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I think they prefer to be called gays or homosexuals, thank you very much.

(or does that word not mean what I think it does?)

They don't treat me any differently than any straight person.

This statement alone defines the flaw in your thinking.  You're not a straight person -- why would you want to be treated like one?  I mean, you're not getting the same rights.

A quick withdrawal is not without historical precedent.  You declare victory and just go home.  Happened in Vietnam.  The case for remaining in Iraq is overstated, in my opinion, if the war isn't about oil. 

Brian, Damn I like you. But you forgot about corporate greed, i.e. halliburton for the reason being there.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

It's not just about corporate greed. Throw out the strawman of the 'industrial war machine', and it still boils down to sheer logistical options and availability of resources.

Sure, you can bring the troops home on the next available flights heading out of the desert 24/7 and that might take a month or so, but if they're going to bring the M16s, tanks, rucksacks, rocket launchers, conexes, computers, tracked or light-wheeled vehicles, etc., that have been accumulating over the last five years, you're still looking at over two years of pulling out. If either man, McCain or Obama, gives the 'make it so' order on Day One of his presidency to pull out of the warzone, there'll still be stuff coming home at the end of their first term.

They don't treat me any differently than any straight person.

This statement alone defines the flaw in your thinking.  You're not a straight person -- why would you want to be treated like one?  I mean, you're not getting the same rights.

I'm sorry.  I misunderstood and didn't realize you were gay as well and assume you are saying that based on your own feelings?  If so, I can understand where you were coming from.  A lot of gay people feel that being gay is who they are.  It's all that defines them.

For me, being gay doesn't define me.  It's just one aspect of who I am.  I don't want to be treated any differently from any other person.  So, there was no flaw in my thinking.

If they think you should not be a parent because you are gay -- they are
treating you different. And its wrong. I can at least understand some
arguments against gay marriage. I can't understand an argument on
prohibiting adoption because of sexual orientation.

Neither can I, but it doesn't make it any less of a reality.  I don't understand any descrimination but it happens every day.

A personal journey:

I was raised Catholic.  I was raised to believe that sex was dirty.  I was raised to believe sex outside of marriage was mortal sin.  So grievous a stain was this upon my psyche that I was disgusted at the mention that my parents had had sex to conceive me.  Granted, I was nine years old, but nowadays that's almost quaint, for a nine-year old to be unenlightened on the birds and the bees.

Because sex was dirty, and because sex outside marriage was a mortal sin, then to have sex with another man was just about the worst thing a man could do.  After all, it's sex without a chance of procreation, and definitely sex without marriage!

As I grew older, and further from my Catholic upbringing, my attitude toward sex began to take a more forgiving tack.  A big part of that was that I eventually discovered that wonderful pastime, also verboten, of self-gratification.  After some guilty feelings, I shook that off and began to see that the "shameful" feelings I was having, despite what everyone I had ever looked up to was telling me, were the most normal feelings in the world.

It was at this point I was faced with a clear choice: having selfishly discarded my core prejudices that most affected me, I was left with one that did not affect me at all: homosexuality.  I could discard that one as well or I could cling to it (bitterly?) as part of my Core Values, secure in that childhood certainty with which I had been inculcated.

I grabbed that Potential Me by the collar, and I took the fucker out back and put two in his brain.  I never bashed a gay person.  I never shouted "faggot" from the safety of a passing car on a darkened street.  I never scribbled hate on a bathroom door or wished ill upon someone just because he wanted to do different things with his dick than I did with mine.  But I could have, so easily, if I hadn't deliberately chosen to Grow the Hell Up.

I refuse to be proud of myself for treating homosexuality as acceptable.  But I am proud every day that I will not let others treat it as unacceptable.  This is the battleground; we must take the field.