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Thom Price
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Posted: 01 September 2008 at 2:39pm | IP Logged | 1  

America's earliest founders were awfully conservative -- Pilgrims, anyone?  That Puritanical streak still runs unfortunately deep in our country, but it's certainly not accurate to say that's what America stands for.
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David Drebes
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Posted: 01 September 2008 at 2:47pm | IP Logged | 2  

Thom--if you define conservative governance as "free-market, hands off, individual responsibility," then the Pilgrims were the opposite of conservatism.

You're right that they fit with the term as it's used regarding moral issues.
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John Bodin
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Posted: 01 September 2008 at 3:03pm | IP Logged | 3  

 Keith Elder wrote:
An active governor faking her own pregnancy; about as plausible as the faked moon landing.


One of last season's "big" sub-plots on DESPERATE HOUSEWIVES was Bree faking a pregnancy to hide the fact that her daughter was pregnant -- that gave everyone in America a chance to see that it COULD happen, so that means everyone in America now believes it would be do-able, right?

;-)
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Al Cook
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Posted: 01 September 2008 at 3:07pm | IP Logged | 4  

The Pilgrims weren't the founders of "America" at all, Thom. Not even close.
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Thom Price
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Posted: 01 September 2008 at 3:11pm | IP Logged | 5  

Really, Al?  Not even close?  So no correlation between settlements > colony > independence?  Guess the history books got it wrong.  Never would have been a revolution if the colonies hadn't been founded in the first place.
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Al Cook
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Posted: 01 September 2008 at 3:17pm | IP Logged | 6  

The Pilgrims did not come to found the country we think of as "America".
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Joel Tesch
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Posted: 01 September 2008 at 3:20pm | IP Logged | 7  

From people like Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity and Bill O'Reilly to Bush's own little attack dog Karl Rove.

It's on both sides. Al Franken, Michael Moore, Molly Ivins, James Carville, George Soros, etc.(granted, to varying degrees). The Bush daughters certainly have had their share of shots taken at them.

It's wrong on all sides...but don't think it's just one and not the other.

They've gone after John Kerry and John McCain and tried to make it look like their service to our country wasn't quite good enough.

Which was tasteless. But then, so did Wes Clark...again, it's on both sides.

My point is this: Don't get pissed about the current state of American political discourse in this country when for years you've allowed people like the above named to speak for you. Your silence was all the consent they needed to continue doing what they do.

Who exactly are you talking to? Whose silence? How do you know anyone here has been silent on these issues?  And about consent...how about Hilary Clinton appearing on Saturday Night Live, the same program that ridiculed her daughter years earlier for her looks?

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Keith Elder
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Posted: 01 September 2008 at 3:20pm | IP Logged | 8  

They did have an influence on it's culture.  For worse and for better.  They did have some positive influence... "Don't work, don't eat".  It's a mixed bag.
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Al Cook
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Posted: 01 September 2008 at 3:22pm | IP Logged | 9  

True, Keith, but the notion that the Pilgrims were the founders of America is
laughably ignorant of history, their beliefs, and the beliefs that the nation
really was founded on.

Edited by Al Cook on 01 September 2008 at 3:23pm
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Christopher Alan Miller
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Posted: 01 September 2008 at 3:22pm | IP Logged | 10  

Of Course! The founders of the second English speaking colony in the land that became the USA had nothing to do with the founding of the country. It's so obvious now. Why didn't I see it before?
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Thom Price
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Posted: 01 September 2008 at 3:22pm | IP Logged | 11  

The Pilgrims did not come to found the country we think of as "America".

***

Didn't say they founded the country, Al ... which would be properly called "the United States."  But they most certainly would be among the earliest founders of America and, as Keith points out, their influence is still felt in our culture.
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Al Cook
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Posted: 01 September 2008 at 3:23pm | IP Logged | 12  

How can one found a continent, Thom? You're really stretching here.
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