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Thom Price
Byrne Robotics Member
L’Homme Diabolique
Joined: 29 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 7592
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| Posted: 01 September 2008 at 3:24pm | IP Logged | 1
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Never heard of something called "the American colonies" Al?
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Al Cook
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 December 2004
Posts: 12735
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| Posted: 01 September 2008 at 3:24pm | IP Logged | 2
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Christopher Alan Miller wrote:
The founders of the second English speaking
colony in the land that became the USA had nothing to do with the founding
of the country. |
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You got that right.
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Rich Rice
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 April 2008
Posts: 195
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| Posted: 01 September 2008 at 3:27pm | IP Logged | 3
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Well Dave, my hyperbole and name calling are a direct result of 2 things: One, I frequent another board where the rancor is exponentially high. It isn't easy to come here and flip a switch to instant civility. And the other reason, some outrages simply deserve an inflamed response.
The divisions you lay out regarding change are for the most part, on point. Although it is of a genteel nature as to almost gloss over the issues at hand. There's a difference between a concept on paper and the reality of making things work in the complexity of the real world where all sorts of variables come into play. Here's two:
"let free enterprise thrive rather than strangle it"
Well, on paper that is sweet, concise and makes perfect sense to a world of Republicans. Now let's put that into the real world of the past 8 yrs. In the interest of freeing, the Bush Administration undid a host of regulations on the Banking Industry. Did Industry thrive? Yes it did. Did people make money? You bet. -All sort of new schemes were ushered up to mine gold from the housing industry. Banks pushed, encouraged and prodded variable rate mortgages ontohome buyers -who themselves hardly understood the legalese of what they were getting themselves into. People who shouldn't have received loans got them. The engine was purring, running white hot. Builder's built. Values went up. Huge sums of money passed hands. You should see the gregarious displays of wealth I saw from friends who were Realtors.
The people at the top knew what was going on. They knew the risk involved in the bubble bursting. So did the Bush Administration. But the Banks were 'safe' because they knew if they failed, the Government would pick up the tab. And the Government was too happy to see it's "ownership society" humming along. It was a pyramid scheme that would work so long as external economic factors worked in their favor.
But the bubble did burst. All the take, take, take ground to a halt and people were in trouble. People who signed on the dotted line not understanding the fine print found themselves owing money they couldn't possibly cover. Job loss led to job loss. And then failures on enormous scales. Major, top of the line home builders suddenly gone. Fanny May in desperate need of a bail out. And the U. S. government -nay, the people of America are left with one more bill to be added to our gargantuan National Debt.
A debt and burst that COULD have been deeply minimized had the Bush Administration stepped in with some oversight early in the game. But no, that would have "strangled" the feeding frenzy. -It's never a bad time for making money.
And this lack of oversight is exactly the core fault I have with the past 8 years. There wasn't any on any level. You have republicans here shining their laser light of attention on every possible minutia of Hillary this, John Edwards that. Where was the self scrutiny over the past 8 years. If they were as attentive to Abramov and co. the way they are to Edwards love child, we may be facing the consequences of the housing burst we face now.
And so it goes. McCain rails for 2 months that Obama lacks experience. And then he picks Sarah Palin. Even if one were generous and said they have equal experience, it would mean -by McCain's measure- she is not qualified to take on his role should he be incapacitated. Of course the Republicans aren't going to take note of this point. They haven't shown oversight in ages. "It's all good."
George Bush has become the poster child for failure from both sides of the isle. But personally, as much as I feel he's an idiot, I hold the Republican party complacent because of it's unwillingness to self examine the past 8 yrs.
Ok, that's point one.
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Joel Tesch
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 May 2006
Posts: 2834
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| Posted: 01 September 2008 at 3:29pm | IP Logged | 4
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I think what Al's arguing is that the Pilgrims are not traditionally referred to as founders of this country...that's the Founding Fathers. The Pilgrims had nothing in mind re: the unionization of the colonies, etc. The Pilgrims and Puritans left for what is now America for religious freedom. But their OWN religious freedom (as they were interestingly enough, often just as intolerant of other relegions).
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Christopher Alan Miller
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 October 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 2787
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| Posted: 01 September 2008 at 3:32pm | IP Logged | 5
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Did Champlain have anything to do with the founding of Canada?
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Joel Tesch
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| Posted: 01 September 2008 at 3:32pm | IP Logged | 6
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And so it goes. McCain rails for 2 months that Obama lacks experience. And then he picks Sarah Palin.
How's that any different than Obama, who rails for change and against the old Washington guard and then picks a 30 year career Senator.
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Al Cook
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 December 2004
Posts: 12735
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| Posted: 01 September 2008 at 3:34pm | IP Logged | 7
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Joel Tesch wrote:
I think what Al's arguing is that the Pilgrims are not
traditionally referred to as founders of this country...that's the Founding
Fathers. The Pilgrims had nothing in mind re: the unionization of the
colonies, etc. The Pilgrims and Puritans left for what is now America for
religious freedom. But their OWN religious freedom (as they were
interestingly enough, often just as intolerant of other relegions). |
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Bingo.
Thanks, Joel.
(What's interesting, as David Drebes pointed out near the bottom of the
last page, is that the Pilgrims were politcally very far removed from
what we would think of as conservatism. Politically, today, the Pilgrims
would very likely be seen as extreme leftists.
Religiously, however, as you point out, they would fit in with the
intolerance sometimes displayed by those on the modern far right.)
Edited by Al Cook on 01 September 2008 at 3:37pm
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Joel Tesch
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 May 2006
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| Posted: 01 September 2008 at 3:42pm | IP Logged | 8
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Politically, today, the Pilgrims would very likely be seen as extreme leftists.
Yes, you and Dave are right about that! It's pretty interesting how political/social philosophy changes and evolves (and oftentimes exist in contradiction!)
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Al Cook
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 December 2004
Posts: 12735
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| Posted: 01 September 2008 at 3:43pm | IP Logged | 9
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Yeah - it's fascinating. I love that kind of stuff. It's a weird, wide world.
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Rich Rice
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 April 2008
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| Posted: 01 September 2008 at 3:53pm | IP Logged | 10
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Point 2. The Supreme Court appointments and gay rights.
Stated in brief and on paper, what could more simple than a Christian desiring Christian leaning Supreme Court nominees?
Now, let's jump out into the real world. A while back, a year or so after 9-11,I had a private conversation with a University Administrator at the college where I work. And at one point, can't recall what brought this up, he leaned forward and said to me in confidence that it was his solemn duty to get rid of those people in the University and how pleased he was that he successfully removed a woman that very week. I was home reflecting on his comments when one (of many) stories hit the news about Arabic translators being dismissed for being gay.
I wondered, "Who would this woman turn to for Justice? The president? A man who would allow needed staff for 'the war on terror' to be dismissed because they are gay? And how silly is that. He stood before America on 9-11 and swore to use every resource possible to bring the people who did this to justice. Well, it seems we aren't safe from terror, but we are safe enough for a little home spun discrimination.
As if. Imagine for a moment those desperate 911 calls from the Twin Towers that fateful day. Imagine one running like this:
"Hello. I'm on the 80th floor of the Trade Center. --We're trapped!! There's fire everywhere. Oh, my god! Oh, my god!"
'Calm down ma'm. We're sending help. Just stay on the line with me.'
"Oh, Lord. People are dying!"
'Stay with me. Just calm down. Firefighters are on the way.'
"Fire fighters? .... Are they straight?"
'Excuse me?'
"Are they straight?! Because if they aren't straight, I don't want them to come."
If for one moment it were possible that a gay Arabic translator had intercepted a call from Bin Laden and exposed his plot, do you think there's a single 9-11 family that wouldn't be grateful to have their loved ones alive and safe and sharing this holiday weekend with them? The president said he would use all resources to safeguard our nation. And yet, for the sake of holding one more principle he diminishes our nation on others.
And so to with the Supreme Court. To use that Judicial body as a means to encode in law matters involving faith in a way that would disenfranchise people a means to redress issues of employment, taxation, hospitalization. It is -forgive the hyperbole- outrageous.
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Rich Rice
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 April 2008
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| Posted: 01 September 2008 at 3:55pm | IP Logged | 11
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Well, Joel I'll try and run this by you... again, as to the subject of 'Change.'
It is not about changing people. It is about changing policy.
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Scott Richards
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 September 2005
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| Posted: 01 September 2008 at 3:58pm | IP Logged | 12
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George Bush was himself a self-confessed drunk driver, and still won two
terms as President. I don't see this story influencing anyone.
If Presidential candidate Obama's drug use didn't influence his followers I don't think drunk driving more than 20 years ago by the husband of the Vice-Presidential candidate will impact anything.
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Topic Closed)
