By the way, Joel for ignoring the body of my post regarding deregulation.
You make my point.

"It's all good."

"Heck of a job."

I have no idea what you're talking about. Am I required to address every element of your posts? Sorry, I don't have the time no inclination.

I do agree with you re: the lack of oversight on the housing market and how that helped lead to the mess we're in now. I don't agree that picking Joe Biden is consistent with wanting to shake up the establishment in Washington...regardless of whether change is in policy or in people. But it does fill a gap (perceived or otherwise) on Obama's resume, and it's part of the game you have to play to get elected. I'm not faulting him for it...but I'm also not faulting McCain for that same reason.

From people like Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity and Bill O'Reilly to Bush's own little attack dog Karl Rove.

It's on both sides. Al Franken, Michael Moore, Molly Ivins, James Carville, George Soros, etc.(granted, to varying degrees). The Bush daughters certainly have had their share of shots taken at them.

It's wrong on all sides...but don't think it's just one and not the other.

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Absolutely wrong on all sides. But you can't honestly believe that the left leaning people you mentioned above have anywhere near the influence as the right leaning ones I mentioned. Except for Michael Moore most of them aren't even on the radar. And they certainly don't have shows masquerading as real news.

My point is this: Don't get pissed about the current state of American political discourse in this country when for years you've allowed people like the above named to speak for you. Your silence was all the consent they needed to continue doing what they do.

Who exactly are you talking to? Whose silence? How do you know anyone here has been silent on these issues?  And about consent...how about Hilary Clinton appearing on Saturday Night Live, the same program that ridiculed her daughter years earlier for her looks?

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Wasn't specifically calling you out, Joel. But many, many conservatives have allowed these right wing nutjobs to spew shit they knew was lies and kept their mouths shut. Unfortunately the people on this forum who see through the bullshit aren't like the majority of Americans on either side of the political spectrum who believe whatever they see on tv. Especially when it would take a matter of minutes to research and find out the truth. And while I might not agree with Hillary there is huge difference between SNL, who get paid to ridicule and poke fun at, and what McCain said.

And I'm sure we've all fallen for things that we wanted to believe but were not true - the first one that comes to mind personally is the elder Bush's grocery store scanner "episode" which was supposed to be an example of him being out-of-touch.  It STILL comes up today, and I've really made every effort to stomp it down when I hear it.  I don't like a lot of politicians, but I like falling for falsehoods even less.

Sometimes you have to defend the people you don't like.  It increases the strength of your arguments if you weed out the bad ones.

And yet the soundbite arguments are depressingly effective.  I'm reminded perhaps apocryphal story of Gaius Calpurnius Bibulus, a staunch political opponent of Julius Caesar who was rewarded for his effectiveness by having a bucket of shit dumped on his head in front of the entire Senate.  The story goes that Bibulus was too embarrassed to be effective from then on.

One of the most lauded deliberative bodies in history, but they still knew the value of a bucket of shit.