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Keith Elder
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 1973
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| Posted: 01 September 2008 at 10:06pm | IP Logged | 1
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Rich: One, I frequent another board where the rancor is exponentially high.
It isn't easy to come here and flip a switch to instant civility. And
the other reason, some outrages simply deserve an inflamed response.
I certainly appreciate that first part. I occasionally will talk politics in other forums, and it is generally FAR less civil. This is a good place JB has here.
None of us here are monsters. Jodi <-> Joel, for example, may be about as far apart politically as you can get without having a Berlin wall in between them, but they're both just trying to argue for what they think is right.
For your second half of your remark; well, it depends what you mean by "inflamed". Passionate is fine. Insulting doesn't help. I somehow sense you are passionate about your political beliefs...
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Joel Tesch
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 May 2006
Posts: 2834
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| Posted: 01 September 2008 at 10:09pm | IP Logged | 2
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None of us here are monsters.
Well... I DO have the Thing as my avatar.
Jodi <-> Joel, for example, may be about as far apart politically as you can get without having a Berlin wall in between them, but they're both just trying to argue for what they think is right.
Yep...although we're both voting for the same presidential candidate come November.
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Dave Pruitt
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6184
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| Posted: 01 September 2008 at 10:18pm | IP Logged | 3
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Rich, the "don't ask, don't tell" policy is a federal law. If these service men (and I don't know what else we're talking about here unless you want to provide links to specific stories) were found to be engaged in homosexual acts or admitted to their superiors that they were gay, the law says, they must be dismissed from military service. It's a ban that is probably outdated and should be reversed by law, and you may be right about special presidential powers to stop those dismissals, but I doubt it. Stop loss measures aren't following or breaking any specific federal laws, though I suppose someone conversant in law might be able make a case for breach of contract.
BTW, I asked you to stop using gratuitous insults and slurs in your posts. You can pick on the small stuff all you want.
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Marc Baptiste
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 June 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3633
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| Posted: 01 September 2008 at 10:20pm | IP Logged | 4
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Dave,
I hear a lot from people that gays don't deserve "special" rights; how do you feel when laws (military service, civil marriage, adoption, etc.) SPECIFICALLY carve out exceptions AGAINST equality for gay and lesbian Americans?
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Rich Rice
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 April 2008
Posts: 195
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| Posted: 01 September 2008 at 10:29pm | IP Logged | 5
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One more, I'm running out of steam and I have paintings screaming for my attention...
"No new taxes."
Ah, Christmas in July. Here's where America is in serious need of getting real and getting there real fast. Politicians love to use that line. Looks great on paper. Works well in sound bites. A sure fire way to get elected and stay there. -Assuming all you're really interested in is getting elected.
Our Christmas wish list is miles long. Everyone wants something, regardless of party. And we want BIG. And we want it now. -We just don't want to pay for it. We want cluster bombs and up armored vehicles. Hight tech, carbon reinforced gear. Ships and planes and gas to fly ships and planes and lots and lots of ammo. We want to send Johnnie to school at 4. And day care when he's home. Football teams and Art classes. Hurricane Relief in an instant. -What? There's 3 of them coming? No matter, shake a few more trailers and bottles of water out of that tree. You name it, we want it. -We just don't want to pay for it.
Truth is, most of our tax dollars are quickly consumed by the essentials of life: the national debt, the military, core entitlement programs. And the cost of those babies mushroom every year. None of those essentials are ever going to go away. Never. Still, we want the Christmas tree to shower us with more and MORE. -Why stay in Iraq for 10 months at 10 billion a month? Shake the Christmas tree so we can stay longer. 100 yrs. if need be.
And yes, while you're giving us those New Gas Refineries, expanding Homeland Security, building that fence along the border, that new sports Arena for the local Ice Hogs... could you throw one more gift under that tree?
Lower my Taxes. Really. I want that.
And yes, every 4 years the con man is happy to give it to us. He keeps a job -and power. And we get to live the life, wondering what's next to come out from under that tree. "Why,Johnny wants help for his college loans. And Billy wants to bomb Iran back to hydro-electricity." -Is that too much to ask?
Meanwhile, the public complaint about earmarks? Well, the truth is, for many a community across America, being the lucky recipient of an earmark is about the only way they can get a capitol improvement project done. It's not like they have money. Practically every city I know of within a 200 mile radius of my home is operating in the red. And yet people get out of bed each day demanding water from their faucet, pot holes filled. You get the picture.
Stressed deeply for cash, communities make due by raising fees on everything a fee can be slapped on. (See! We didn't raise your taxes. Aren't you happy! -Btw, that garbage collection fee just went up another 50 dollars. -But we didn't raise your taxes.) Well, actually that's not true. How is it home values declined and my property taxes went up??? Explain that one. No don't, because even with the property tax increases communities are strapped for cash. It's so bad, parking fees and traffic violations are now significant sources of revenue. Sure, they let you drive 80 mph so when extra cash is needed, it's like shooting ducks in a barrel.
And yet with all the fees and taxes and whatever, the cost of what we take from the Christmas tree far and away strips what comes in. But not to worry. China, foreign investors are happy to hang out behind the curtain, slipping more and more money into the con man's hand.
Read my lips. No new taxes.
"So what do you want from the Christmas tree, little girlie?"
That's the new America: Private wealth. Public Poverty.
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Dave Pruitt
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6184
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| Posted: 01 September 2008 at 10:30pm | IP Logged | 6
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Not fair and outdated, Marc. It's discrimination against someone for their sexual orientation, which should not be allowed to occur, just like all the laws discriminating against people for race have been abolished. Clinton tried to get the ban against gays in the military lifted and promised he would when he was first running for president, and but he had to compromise with "don't ask, don't tell" because there was still way too much resistance to completely lifting the ban, presumably from those that run the military. Seems that gay marriage is becoming more common in many states, and I suppose the military restrictions, and all other discriminatory federal laws will tumble soon.
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Marc Baptiste
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 June 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3633
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| Posted: 01 September 2008 at 10:39pm | IP Logged | 7
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Dave,
From your mouth...
Thanks,
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Mike O'Brien
Byrne Robotics Member
Official JB Historian
Joined: 18 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 10927
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| Posted: 01 September 2008 at 10:47pm | IP Logged | 8
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Yep...although we're both voting for the same presidential candidate come November.
Wait, WHAT? Jodi's voting for McCain?
BALLS!
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Dave Pruitt
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6184
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| Posted: 01 September 2008 at 10:55pm | IP Logged | 9
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There's little chance of that. Joel must mean he intends to vote for Obama.
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Joel Tesch
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 May 2006
Posts: 2834
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| Posted: 01 September 2008 at 10:56pm | IP Logged | 10
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Joel must mean he intends to vote for Obama.
Yup. I voted for him in the primaries too.
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Mike O'Brien
Byrne Robotics Member
Official JB Historian
Joined: 18 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 10927
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| Posted: 01 September 2008 at 10:57pm | IP Logged | 11
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Ha ha ha ha ha... oh, Dave Pruitt, what won't you say?
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Rich Rice
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 April 2008
Posts: 195
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| Posted: 01 September 2008 at 10:59pm | IP Logged | 12
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Well, Don't Ask doesn't quite work that way. Remember... paper. Reality.
U.S. Military doesn't wait for gays to come out of the closet. They actively seek them out. They do ask. I can't point you to specific stories other than I've read the stories over these war years and I have a distant cousin who is an Admiral.
In many ways, it's like highway patrol using speeding tickets. When you want revenue it's ducks in a barrel. Being gay or being known is rarely an issue because half the guys don't care. And it doesn't take long for people to "know." The guy without babes on the wall. Not talking about 'getting some.' Not joining others off base. It's one of the basic puzzles about the guy next you that people figure out pretty quickly. It is not a case of people going out of their way to flaunt Don't Ask.
I've heard horror stories where nothing is made of it until tours of duty are complete and it's time to head home to military benefits. Then and only then does the hammer come down. Or when it's stop-loss time, like during the surge, there's no way they'd let any soldier go, even if he was humping his equipment in the fox hole. Stop-Loss trumps Don't Ask.
That's the truth of it. A @!#^% up system.
But as it is common in America, so long as you're not on the receiving end, most people won't give it a moments thought.
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