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Rich Rice
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Posted: 01 September 2008 at 11:06pm | IP Logged | 1  

And as I wind down this immersion in internet posting...

Keith, it would take out all the fun if one couldn't be insulting at least once in awhile.

I rather like a good internet smack down, every now and then.

I will also admit, there have been times I've said something and not slept well afterwards. Although usually when I check the next day, it was either not as vicious as I thought... or rolled off like nothing happened. It's rare I truly regret something I've said. Thank god.

Still, I would have never been John Kerry. -I was much bullied in my youth, so now if someone wants to show me fangs I've got a pair and a half just waiting.

Go Dems!
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Jodi Moisan
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Posted: 01 September 2008 at 11:12pm | IP Logged | 2  

Yep...although we're both voting for the same presidential candidate come November.

It's because we had great imaginary hate sex. LOL

I have to give props to each candidate.

For Obama's "leave the families out of the dirty politics."

For McCain putting the attention on the storm down south, instead of the Republican's convention.

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Rich Rice
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Posted: 01 September 2008 at 11:16pm | IP Logged | 3  

Researchers Locate Army Document Ordering Commanders Not to Fire Gays

Regulations Seem to Contradict Pentagon Denial That Military Retains Gays During War

Date: September 13, 2005
Press Contact: Geoffrey Bateman, Center for the Study of Sexual Minorities in the Military University of California, Santa Barbara 805-893-5664

SANTA BARBARA, CA, September 13, 2005 - Scholars studying military personnel policy have found a controversial regulation halting the discharge of gay soldiers in units that are about to be mobilized. The document is significant because of longstanding Pentagon denials that the military requires gays to serve during wartime, only to fire them once peacetime returns. According to the "don't ask, don't tell" policy, gays and lesbians must be discharged whether or not the country is at war.

The regulation, contained in a 1999 "Reserve Component Unit Commander's Handbook" and still in effect, states that if a discharge for homosexual conduct is requested "prior to the unit's receipt of alert notification, discharge isn't authorized. Member will enter AD [active duty] with the unit." The 1999 document was obtained by researchers at the Center for the Study of Sexual Minorities in the Military (CSSMM), a think tank at the University of California, Santa Barbara during research for an ABC Nightline story.

Gay soldiers and legal groups have reported for years that known gays are sent into combat, and then discharged when the conflicts end. Discharge statistics corroborate a pattern of rising expulsions during peacetime and plummeting rates during military conflicts, and Pentagon statistics confirm that, as has been the case in every war since World War II, gay discharges have declined during the current conflict in the Middle East.

But the Pentagon has consistently denied that, when mobilization requires bolstering troop strength, it sends gays to fight despite the existence of a gay ban, and some observers have insisted there is no evidence of such a practice. During the first Gulf War, Pentagon spokesman, Bill Caldwell, said the military would "absolutely not" send gays to war and discharge them when the conflict ends. "The policy on gays continues that homosexuality is incompatible with military service," he said. [Randy Shilts, "Army Discharges Lesbian Who Challenged Ban," San Francisco Chronicle, Jan. 19, 1991.]

Shortly after the terrorist attacks of 9/11, a Pentagon spokesman said that the military was not modifying its regulations on gay troops. "There is no policy that would generate a change in the standards or in the administrative due process for [Pentagon] programs," said James Turner, "including the department's management of homosexual conduct policies as prescribed in law." [Chris Bull, "'Don't Ask Don't Tell'" Goes to War," The Advocate, December 04, 2001.]

And a May, 2005 study by the Congressional Research Service says that although gay discharges do decline during wartime, the decrease is the result of “random fluctuations in the data," not an intentional Pentagon policy of retaining gays during wars ["Homosexuals and U.S. Military Policy: Current Issues," p. 12]. The co-author of that recent report, David Burrelli, testified before Congress in 1993 that the Congressional Research Service "has been unable to confirm or deny" that known gays were sent to the Persian Gulf, and that the military has "taken the approach of excluding all admitted homosexuals." [David Burrelli, Congressional testimony, page 9, 10]

But the newly discovered handbook regulations appear to contradict all of these pronouncements. Bridget Wilson, an expert on military law, said the handbook shows "how arbitrary and capricious the law is." The policy says that if gay troops reveal their sexual orientation, they must be fired. But these regulations say that if someone comes out as gay, a commander "can discount that statement in one context and not in another." He can "choose to ignore that statement as being said solely to avoid duty and send that person on. But he wouldn't have to make a finding that the statement was false, only that the person said it to avoid duty." Thus it is fully possible that avowed gays would be sent to active duty. "If you're knowingly sending gay people into a war zone," said Wilson, "doesn't that vitiate your policy?"

The handbook is a revised edition of a similar document from 1990, which contains identical language regulating the mobilization of gay troops. That handbook was cited in a disputed Wall Street Journal article reporting that the Pentagon was sending known gays to the first Persian Gulf War only to discharge them upon their return. David Burrelli questioned the Wall Street Journal's allegations that a Commander's Handbook barred the discharge of gays during a mobilization. "No such handbook has been found," he wrote, "nor has their [sic] been any documentation that any such bars existed." [David Burrelli, "An Overview of the Debate on Homosexuals in the U.S. Military," in Wilbur Scott and Sandra Carson Stanley, eds., Gays and Lesbians in the U.S. Military: Issues, Concerns, and Contrasts, FN# 21, p. 30] The Commander's Handbook located by CSSMM scholars now provides such documentation.

Prior to the first Gulf War, the government issued a "stop-loss" order allowing the services to retain troops who were facing discharge for a variety of reasons. Following the attacks of 9/11, a similar stop-loss order was issued, but when the services implemented it, most specified that discharges would continue for homosexual conduct. In both cases, however, dozens of allegations surfaced that the military was sending known gays to war. The two handbooks retrieved this week by CSSMM researchers are among the first evidence of written regulations clearing the way for known gays to mobilize.

Bridget Wilson said that the Reserve Commander's handbook may be used as a way for commanders in the Reserve to "pass the buck" to other officials. "It's the 'let's make it someone else's problem' mentality," she said, and it suggests that many commanders would rather not enforce the gay ban. "I bet ninety percent of the time, they'll tell the guy to shut up and get on the plane," Wilson said, "and I think that's the purpose-they're trying to massage their way around the regulation."

According to Dr. Aaron Belkin, director of the CSSMM, "Scholars, lawyers and, most importantly, gay service members themselves, have long known of the military's practice of looking the other way when it's time to fight a war. Now we have documentation showing this has been a deliberate policy."

The Center for the Study of Sexual Minorities in the Military is an official research unit of the University of California, Santa Barbara. The Center is governed by a distinguished board of advisors including the Honorable Lawrence J. Korb of the Center for American Progress, Honorable Coit Blacker of Stanford University and Professor Janet Halley of Harvard Law School. Its mission is to promote the study of gays, lesbians, and other sexual minorities in the armed forces.

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Dave Pruitt
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Posted: 01 September 2008 at 11:45pm | IP Logged | 4  

There are always going to be stories and exceptions. There are always going to be some recruiters that bend rules, but they are not allowed to ask, and considering the need we have for recruits right now, I willing to bet any that recruiters that do bend that rule are at an all-time low. They need recruits. Security personnel are also barred by law from asking, but I suppose it does happen, sometimes, like everything else.

So, what exactly are you arguing against, Rich, the fired translators, who we really really need right now? The policy banning gays which keeps people that want to serve from serving, or the fact that some may get retained when it's convenient for their superiors? Saying, "Hey I'm gay" to get out of service (whether true or not) when it's convenient, like wartime, is wrong too.

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Dave Pruitt
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Posted: 01 September 2008 at 11:50pm | IP Logged | 5  

 Mike wrote:
Ha ha ha ha ha... oh, Dave Pruitt, what won't you say?
 

Umm, lots of things? Mostly, stuff I don't believe. You saw Joel's answer, I guess, after you posted this? 

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Joel Tesch
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Posted: 01 September 2008 at 11:51pm | IP Logged | 6  

Interesting that that press release cites a 1999 handbook. So apparently it's policy that's been going on under the last two presidents. And that handbook is nearly 10 years old now...I wonder if that policy has been changed/corrected since then?
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Dave Pruitt
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Posted: 02 September 2008 at 12:01am | IP Logged | 7  

I suspect the thrust of the document is to allow commanders to retain control and prevent a rash of "gay admissions" from happening the minute an alert occurs. Even if they're true admissions, it's really wrong of people to do that just to save their skins. It's also wrong to let them serve their tour, then discharge them when they get home. It is a fouled up system, for this reason and the discrimination reason, and lots of reasons. It needs to be resolved.
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 02 September 2008 at 12:13am | IP Logged | 8  

I suspect the thrust of the document is to allow commanders to retain control and prevent a rash of "gay admissions" from happening the minute an alert occurs. Even if they're true admissions, it's really wrong of people to do that just to save their skins.

---

Do you have any sources that indicate that either of these things happened in enough numbers to warrant this policy?
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Keith Elder
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Posted: 02 September 2008 at 1:43am | IP Logged | 9  

Do you have any sources that indicate that either of these things happened in enough numbers to warrant this policy?

---

Didn't you watch M*A*S*H?
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Rich Rice
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Posted: 02 September 2008 at 2:18am | IP Logged | 10  

I cited the document for no other reason but to give you a first glance into the topic. It is neither the foundation of my complaint, nor does it stand as the single incident. It was merely the first, easy source I could Google. And one of the few reports of the problem in the mainstream press.

I first took interest in the topic back on the day Clinton became president. His first act as president was to issue an order as Commander in Chief that gays were allowed in the Military. A huge firestorm brewed over night, from both sides of the aisles, Democrats and Republicans alike. And it fascinated me to watch on CSpan, Congressmen on Battleships, huddled amongst sailors "in close quarters" prompting answers from them with cameras square in their faces as to how they felt about bunking with a "known" homosexual. For all the square jaws and shaved heads, it all looked so Lilly livered. These poor dears called upon to bring lightning death to anyone that crossed them, yet dumbstruck with fear that someone next to them might find them cute. (Why an aged Sam Nunn would ever need worry, lord knows... but I digress.)

Not long after the policy was set in place, the stories began to trickle out. In time it was a regular narrative in papers such as the Windy City Times. And quite clear -to gay servicemen at least- that the 'Don't Ask' part of the policy didn't exist. These were not the odd, random story. Almost a regular feature with new twists and turns. I am not talking at recruitment. These are men who were in uniform, trying to hold up their end of 'Don't tell.'  After the Iraq invasion started, the stories began to change. Stories of servicemen who received dishonorable discharges conveniently at the end of their  tour of duty. And then stories of how the systematic purge stopped when it became clear this was going to be a prolonged, bloody event.

For a year or two I saved it all. Kept the newspapers. The Video tapes of glum Congressmen inspecting ships. I can still 'see' in my mind's eye picking up that first story of 2 servicemen dismissed although they had not 'told' anything. Eventually I threw the box out, although I have saved every internet story I came across about the war.

What I deeply regret is not taping the evening news and how it broadcast coverage of the war. How the graphics slowly changed over the months... Originally, every news media ran with graphics about the hunt for Weapons of Mass Destruction. And then it morphed into the search for Saddam. I sat stunned the first night the graphic changed to "War on Terror." I was so angered, I wanted to throw a shoe at the tv. We were being sold an ever shifting product. By the media, by the government. If I had known it was coming, I would have recorded every broadcast for posterity. It is so much clearer to see in hindsight.

Those all too fabricated 'now orange, tomorrow yellow' alerts seem so quaint and distant now. But again I digress...

If I be idealistic and argue for something truly lasting, perhaps it would be the hope that people would come to a position that nobility does not reside in service, in a gun, on a ship, or a flag. -Not even the American flag. Any man can pick up a gun, it lends him no nobility. Any man can pick up a gun for country and still there is no nobility. Rightness lies in the integrity of ideals. If you want to fight the 'good' fight, then it had better be about something high and noble. If not, it is more likely the wrong fight. Just the strong doing what they can. And the weak suffering what they must.

Same with Don't Ask. Just the strong doing what they can. Those weaker just deal.


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Tom French
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Posted: 02 September 2008 at 4:16am | IP Logged | 11  

"Are you offended by the phrase 'under God' in the pledge of allegience, why or why not?"
        -- Eagle Forum Candidate Questionnaire

"Not on your life!  If it was good enough for the founding fathers, it's good enough for me!  And I'll fight in defense of our pledge of allegience."
         -- Sarah Palin

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Tom French
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Posted: 02 September 2008 at 4:18am | IP Logged | 12  

"I'm not sure what she brings to the ticket other than she's a woman and a conservative."
-- Faye Palin, Sarah Palin's mother-in-law
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