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Michael Retour
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 May 2006
Posts: 932
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| Posted: 03 September 2008 at 1:34pm | IP Logged | 1
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Seems to me Freddie, Fannie and everyone else (with the exception of Bush) knew what they were doing.
The mortgage "crisis" is just a symptom of a disease.
If I am not mistaken, Carter started deregulation (with promises of free market "delights" ahead because, you know, "regulations are bad"), not the present unfortunate we have as president.
Get into the Austrian School sometime and I hope you make it out with brain intact. Von Mises? This, along with the Chicago School, line of economic thinking is a failure isn't it? Take a look around. All the Chicago Boys could come up with is a speculative financial bubble in various incarnations: stocks, derivatives, housing and the government allowed it to take place. Oh yeah, the Chicago Boys did help put Pinochet in power in Chile because their economics work better under fascism than a free society. It is so much easier to impose austerity at the point of a gun.
The only saving grace with Robert Rubin is that he knew what he was doing. Perhaps he had no "grand solution", but he was far more competent than the person in there now.
Speculation in RE, or the stock market, is nothing new. Having the fox guard the hen house is nothing new either, hence dereg.
I don't see either candidate coming down hard on the side of re-regulating the economy. Their handlers won't allow it even if they were so inclined.
It was under Clinton that a great brawl broke out over whether or not derivatives (side bets) ought to be regulated and Clinton caved in to Greenspan (a Milton Friedman fan and an Ayn Rand fan). I seem to recall Alan praising the Austrian School as if it were some great breakthrough in economics. Listen to what "Bubbles" Greenspan is saying now and compare it to what he said as the Big Cheese.
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Michael Myers
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 December 2004
Posts: 831
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| Posted: 03 September 2008 at 2:34pm | IP Logged | 2
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Michael wrote:
| Get into the Austrian School sometime and I hope you make it out with
brain intact. Von Mises? This, along with the Chicago School, line of
economic thinking is a failure isn't it? |
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As opposed to Keynesian, or even neo-Keynesian thought, you mean? You might get an argument from Ron Paul...but you'd also have him agree with you to an extent regarding the Chicago School. If you're suggesting something along Krugman's reasoning, I'll even argue with you. Marx, et al, aren't even in the running.
To answer your question, no. But then, you do live in our mixed-economy, so you shopuld already know the answer.
QUOTE:
| Take a look around. All the
Chicago Boys could come up with is a speculative financial bubble in
various incarnations: stocks, derivatives, housing and the government
allowed it to take place. Oh yeah, the Chicago Boys did help put
Pinochet in power in Chile because their economics work better under
fascism than a free society. It is so much easier to impose austerity
at the point of a gun. |
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Is this your summation of the actual Chicago School, as well? You are actually saying--as it reads to me--that something like monetarist theory can be better used by fascist economies than Keynesian economoic theory? Keynes, himself, would disagree with you; hence the famous preface to 'The General Theory of Employment Interest and Money'. Hell, even neo-Keynesians like Krugman would take issue with your phrasing, Michael.
If the critique is limited to Chile and the latin Chicago Boys, they're a story of their own.
QUOTE:
| The only saving grace with Robert Rubin is that he knew what he was
doing. Perhaps he had no "grand solution", but he was far more
competent than the person in there now. |
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Speaking of the fox guarding the hen-house, Michael, wasn't it Rubin who left his position as Treasury Secretary to join Citigroup's advisory board? You know, just one week after the White House and the Treasury Department, under Rubin, had agreed to support the Citicorp merger which was the spur to repealing the Glass-Steagal Act? Yeeaaaah...he was sure on the ball, all right!
Michael, this reminds me of something. I missed a few interesting
posts for about three-week period while on vacation, etc, but, were you
the cat who stated that the Fed didn't make "use" of GDP figures in
determining policy?
Edited by Michael Myers on 03 September 2008 at 2:42pm
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Kevin Hagerman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 15 April 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 18273
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| Posted: 03 September 2008 at 2:51pm | IP Logged | 3
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Scott, you are giving the Democrats way too much credit for being unified. They're hard-wired for gridlock.
In other words, are you enjoying the health care plan Hillary put together in the nineties?
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Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security
Robotmod
Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 36443
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| Posted: 03 September 2008 at 2:53pm | IP Logged | 4
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Bruce Buchanan wrote:
| Geez, Michael...it's so much easier to blame Bush for everything. Saves lots of reseach and typing and the like. |
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Kinda like Republicans blaming everything on Clinton. The knife cuts both ways.
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Jodi Moisan
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 February 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 6808
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| Posted: 03 September 2008 at 2:54pm | IP Logged | 5
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If being a prisoner of war is a be all and end all qualification for a great leaders, then we have created a slew of them in Abu Garb.
I think they are short changing McCain if that is all they can come back with. Why aren't they keying in on his history of working with the Dems, like Biden, Hillary and Lieberman.
Alaska Independence Party? I just learned Palin was once a member and as governor supported them. Does anyone on here know what this group is?
Edited by Jodi Moisan on 03 September 2008 at 3:02pm
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Al Cook
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 December 2004
Posts: 12735
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| Posted: 03 September 2008 at 3:07pm | IP Logged | 6
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If Michael Myers isn't an economics professor somewhere I'll eat my hat.
(Just curious, Michael, what do you do for a living?)
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Donald Miller
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 February 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 3601
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| Posted: 03 September 2008 at 3:28pm | IP Logged | 7
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More history of Sarah Palin..
found in this article in TIME..
This very telling paragraph...
[Former Wasilla mayor] Stein says that as mayor, Palin continued to
inject religious beliefs into her policy at times. “She asked the
library how she could go about banning books,” he says, because some
voters thought they had inappropriate language in them. “The librarian
was aghast.” The librarian, Mary Ellen Baker, couldn’t be reached for
comment, but news reports from the time show that Palin had threatened
to fire her for not giving “full support” to the mayor.
Not a fan of book banners at all...just confirms for me that this person shouldn't be in charge of anything...if they can't recognize that libraries are supposed to be repositories of art and free thought.
Don
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Keith Elder
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 1973
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| Posted: 03 September 2008 at 4:08pm | IP Logged | 8
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Jodi: McCain was not in the "cone of silence" for the Saddlebeck Forum of Faith. Yeesh what a cheater.
McCain was 30 minutes late getting to the debate. You seriously think he did that so he could hear the beginning of Obama's questioning? Good grief.
By the way, both candidates were given two questions in advance.
The unfortunate thing about the Saddleback Forum is that McCain won it handily enough that Obama's team is now going to be much more leery of future debates.
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Keith Elder
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 1973
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| Posted: 03 September 2008 at 4:13pm | IP Logged | 9
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Knut: While it may be true that Democrats are "closer" to socialism than
Republicans are, it is in the sense that Manhattan's West side is
closer to LA than the East side is.
That's all anybody means. Except for the nutjobs, nobody thinks the democrats are communists or the republicans are nazis. Just that the dems are closer to socialism and the republicans are closer to fascism. And that's an oversimplification because on some issues, their positions are reversed.
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Mike O'Brien
Byrne Robotics Member
Official JB Historian
Joined: 18 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 10927
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| Posted: 03 September 2008 at 4:27pm | IP Logged | 10
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Damn Keith, you just called a bunch of guys on here "nutjobs".
I keep liking you more and more...
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Jodi Moisan
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 February 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 6808
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| Posted: 03 September 2008 at 4:47pm | IP Logged | 11
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I have a secret crush on Keith, he's so naive it's really attractive.
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Michael Retour
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 May 2006
Posts: 932
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| Posted: 03 September 2008 at 5:14pm | IP Logged | 12
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Nah, Keynes I don't go for or Krugman either. They remind me of "liberal" Milton Friedmans.
"Our mixed economy" needs a definition. The present economy doesn't function at all. Whatever mix you're talking about define for me. I am all ears.
I didn't make a summation of the Chicago Boys, except to say they liked Pinochet and that's a fact. I asserted that the Chicago School's half-baked ideas are preferred, by the originators, under fascism. I believe there is a Friedman quote out there someplace to back this up. It doesn't get a lot of press play but then again we don't really have a free press.
I am not talking about "Latin" admirers of the Chicago School (a thin veil for the Austrian School). That is just public record. Deny it all you like but history is history. Read what Pinochet wanted to do, who installed him and what economic philosophy he followed. You make it sound like this was just a group of rouge traders, like the poor sap that brought down LTCM (who really didn't).
Milty Friedman isn't "Latin" and he dubbed Pinochet's Chile -- quoting here -- a "miracle" so please spare me.
I said Rubin was more competent the current Treasury Secretary (the current people in there who have to deal with the multiple economic crises at hand and have NO solutions at all) and Rubin was. I didn't make any apologies for his choice of employment etc. The current regime is incompetent on nearly every economic issue, or any other, you can bring up.
You won't put me in a box of defending Bob Rubin's choices either.
The monetarists have failed like no other failures in history. Skip Marx because, for me, he was just a failed monetarist who adopted some crazy theories. Who cares? Socialism/communism and monetarism are failures.
The Austrian School and Chicago School children of the Austrians were just particularly whacked out.
The current economic system is dead, kaput. It won't be salvaged by Obama or McCain.
Lastly, yes GDP is a useless metric as are unemployment numbers and so
on. Anyone remotely familiar with the BLS ought to know that.
So, in answer to the question: it was me.
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