Mike,

Well, it's the End of Times.  We agreed again.

I'm definitely open to talking about it.  My first summer out of high school working in a steel mill, before going to college in the fall, opened my eyes to a lot of black people who had little education and were working hard to make a better life for their children.  Probably 40% of the people who worked their were black.  It was a hard, dirty job.  We would talk in the lunchroom and they were upset that their children weren't grateful for the sacrifices they were making and were joining gangs, getting arrested, dropping out of school, etc.  I could see the pain they felt because even though they wanted their children to be better off than they were but their children didn't listen and then complained when things got bad for them.  But, the strange thing is, the white people there said the exact same things about their kids.  That's when I realized that life is what you make of it and that each individual is the only one who can make life better for themselves.  No matter how much someone else does for someone, if they don't want to make themselves a better person, it's not going to help.

That is why I respect Bill Cosby's views on things.  A better life is available to anyone who wants it with enough hard work.  I worked 2 and sometimes 3 (usually minimum wage) jobs while I went to college.  It took me 8 years to get my degree because I worked so many hours a week that I could only take (and afford) a couple of classes a quarter.  I took advantage of student loans and have since paid them back in full.  I took no money from my family (though, even if I wanted to, we had none).  I got no grants.  I had no scholarships (I was a B+/A- student) so I paid my own way.  It was hard and it sucked.  But, if I went back, I'd do it again.  Anyone can do it.  There is even extra help available exclusively to black kids who want to go to college (like the United Negro College Fund) that wasn't available to me.

So, my summer in the steel mill along with the sacrifices I was willing to make to better myself and go to school definitely make up a large part of my views on the race issue and why I see it the way Bill Cosby does.

I've always thought that Bill Cosby's "problem" was that he doesn't realize not everyone is as capable and talented and intelligent as Bill Cosby.

Oh, I think he realizes that.  Not everyone needs/wants to be a star.  You don't have to have talent or be intelligent to make yourself better.

William -- I'm sure we've gone through this before, but my short-term memory was destroyed years ago (I think...).  Where in PA?

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Mansfield. Small college town about 45 miles north of Williamsport.

I've always thought that Bill Cosby's "problem" was that he doesn't realize not everyone is as capable and talented and intelligent as Bill Cosby.

I agree with that - though there is some subtle differences here - he's got some good points about dignity and self-respect that are decent, and you will never go wrong with hard work, and a lot of that has to be factored in.

Having said that, he's failing to realize that not everyone is him.  It's not just a matter of hard-work - that's a slap in the face of every hard working black person in America. 

Having said that, he's failing to realize that not everyone is him.  It's not just a matter of hard-work - that's a slap in the face of every hard working black person in America.

That's really the only point we disagree on in this regard.  I don't see it as a slap in the face.  Yes, it's an extra hurdle to leap, but the same can be said of women, gay people, fat people, handicapped people, etc.  Life isn't fair, but life is what you make of it.

Scott, I agree with that in terms of women, gay people, etc, whatever.

I think we have to understand that the black experience is a whole other thing.  They and the Native Americans both have different hurdles that others do not have.

I hear what you're saying in your bigger post - later, as time permits, I'll expand some thoughts on that - I only have time for quick posts now.  But thanks for opening up.