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Geoff Gibson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5744
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| Posted: 17 October 2008 at 3:20pm | IP Logged | 1
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Geoff I think Rich makes a great point, the war on terror reminds me or the war on drugs.
Yeah, I don't disagree. I think in the way its framed thats 100% right. As you know I'm not pro-war at all. I do think we should be able to defend ourselves where we are threatened. I'm no fan of the Bush doctrine but I'd note Senator Obama has not, to my knowledge, run away from the idea of it, and I don't know that you can if you are serious about defending us from terrorism. I think the balance between protecting our security and interests and overstepping our right of self denfense is a sensitive one which could be flunked by the best intentioned people. The Iraq war, to my mind, was an unnecessary one based on the evidence at the time and what we've learned since. Our excursion into Afghanastan was appropriate I thought.
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Geoff Gibson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5744
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| Posted: 17 October 2008 at 3:24pm | IP Logged | 2
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Geoff:
Guess you missed my point as well. A pity.
Mine costs a heck of lot less...
Can you have a discussion or even an argument without questioning the motives or assuming the worst of the person on the other end of the conversation? That is the point, Rich. Please consider it. It will make your points much more powerful.
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Mike O'Brien
Byrne Robotics Member
Official JB Historian
Joined: 18 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 10927
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| Posted: 17 October 2008 at 3:35pm | IP Logged | 3
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Rich - Geoff is a good cat. I totally get your feelings, Rich - and I agree with a most of them - but Geoff's with us on this.
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Jason Czeskleba
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 April 2004
Posts: 4639
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| Posted: 17 October 2008 at 4:03pm | IP Logged | 4
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Geoff Gibson wrote:
| I don't for a minute believe that money that would be "saved" by not
being in Iraq wouldn't be re-allocated for some other government
purpose. |
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In general I agree that is the way government operates (ie, spending cut in one area is used to fund another rather than "given back" to taxpayers). But in this case I think spending cut in Iraq would go towards the national debt, because it's so huge. We cannot keep spending at the rate we are spending. At some point there's going to have to be tax increases and/or spending cuts (most likely both).
Bruce Buchanan wrote:
| Ronald Reagan (one of the few politicians in American history who actually was able to cut federal spending) |
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Reagan did not cut overall federal spending. His cuts in social services were more than offset by his vast increases in military spending, and he left office with an enormous federal deficit.
Oh, and the "Obama voted for higher taxes 90 times" thing you mentioned a few pages back is not entirely true. 23 of those votes were against proposed tax cuts, not for tax increases. 7 of the votes were to lower taxes for many while increasing them for a relative few. 11 of the votes were to increase taxes on those making more than 1 million yearly. And the count includes multiple votes on the same measure, which artificially inflates the overall count. Obama has voted to increase taxes, but not as much as portrayed, and he has favored increases for the wealthy with decreases for middle and lower classes, which is consistent with what his campaign is claiming now.
Edited by Jason Czeskleba on 17 October 2008 at 4:08pm
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Mike O'Brien
Byrne Robotics Member
Official JB Historian
Joined: 18 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 10927
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| Posted: 17 October 2008 at 4:11pm | IP Logged | 5
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I don't for a minute believe that money that would be "saved" by not being in Iraq wouldn't be re-allocated for some other government purpose.
This is Obama's exact plan. To take the money from programs that are cut and put them into others. |
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Corey Johnson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 2020
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| Posted: 17 October 2008 at 4:12pm | IP Logged | 6
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QUOTE:
| Actually, I read somewhere that Bush has used his veto power far less than any other president in recent memory. |
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No need, when you can just add signing statements to everything saying what's valid in a bill and what isn't.
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Jason Czeskleba
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 April 2004
Posts: 4639
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| Posted: 17 October 2008 at 4:14pm | IP Logged | 7
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Regarding W. Bush and vetoes... no time to look it up now, but my recollection is that he didn't veto anything during his first six years in office. Wasn't it only recently that he issued his first veto?
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Mike O'Brien
Byrne Robotics Member
Official JB Historian
Joined: 18 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 10927
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| Posted: 17 October 2008 at 4:16pm | IP Logged | 8
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What could the Republican Congress have cooked up that he would want to Veto? He and they were in lock-step.
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Christopher Alan Miller
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 October 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 2787
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| Posted: 17 October 2008 at 4:21pm | IP Logged | 9
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July 19th 2006 was the date of his first veto.
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Al Cook
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 December 2004
Posts: 12734
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| Posted: 17 October 2008 at 4:23pm | IP Logged | 10
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What did he veto?
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Todd Douglas
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 July 2004
Posts: 4099
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| Posted: 17 October 2008 at 4:26pm | IP Logged | 11
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Puppies, Al.
Puppies...and Elizabeth Banks.
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Christopher Alan Miller
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 October 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 2787
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| Posted: 17 October 2008 at 4:27pm | IP Logged | 12
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He vetoed a bill lifting funding restrictions on embryonic stem cell research.
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