I thought we had to sit down and discuss with people we disagree with?

And how does a sarcastic comment like that forward the debate?  Mike was describing his visceral reaction to what he saw.  He's angered by support of the proposition and believes it based in biggotry.  Do you want to discuss the issue with him and explain to him why his view is wrong? I'm sure he's willing to listen.  You may not change his mind, and he may not change yours, but a respectful discussion is always welcome.

Isn't it possible that some African-Americans are voting for Obama simply because he's black? And, if so, how is that appreciably different than whites voting against him on purely racial grounds? A sticky subject, to be sure.

I think its different to vote for someone, rather than against someone

Geoff again you addressed the point perfectly.

And then you went and did it again while I was posting.

Geoff Gibson for Senate!

Mike, I bet those people waving those signs aren't necessarily the monsters you think. In fact, you probably have some common ground with quite a few of these protesters on other issues

(And before this gets any further, let me note that I support gay marriage rights on the grounds that the private moral behavior of consenting adults is none of the government's business.)

There's a really interesting scism between white liberals and black liberals on the gay marriage issue, probably more than with any other issue. African-American liberalism has always been steeped in a pretty evangelical brand of Christianity, so many otherwise liberal African-Americans are strongly opposed to gay marriage.

I guess there's a similar split among Republicans. Social conservatives clearly are adamantly opposed to gay marriage, while libertarians like me feel that the government is overstepping its bounds by getting involved in the issue.

Not Scott's fault here and I assign no blame -- I just want the record to be clear and my character and beliefs understood.

Sorry, Geoff, I meant to clip off the end of that while I was typing up my reply about Florida and then forgot.  I never thought you were against gay marriage.

Isn't it possible that some African-Americans are voting for Obama simply because he's black? And, if so, how is that appreciably different than whites voting against him on purely racial grounds? A sticky subject, to be sure.

I think its different to vote for someone, rather than against someone

Geoff again you addressed the point perfectly.

***********

Eh. To me, it's splitting hairs. If you are voting for one candidate because he's a member of X group, aren't you, by default, voting against the other candidate because she's a member of group Y?

I don't see much (if any) difference. Again, just my opinion.

I really, really, really wish McCain hadn't been talked into selecting Palin as his running mate.  As her ever greater conservative social side comes out it's just like nails on a chalkboard.  As much as I thouroughly disagree with Obama on a lot of his non-social issues, I'm actually starting to rethink my support of McCain.  I'm not ready to jump ship yet, but I'll admit I'm drifting a bit.  I still like McCain and would much prefer he be President over Obama but the idea of Palin as President is starting to scare me more than Obama as President.  I just don't know.

Why couldn't we vote for the President and Vice-President independantly?  I'd vote for McCain/Biden.

I'm a Californian who opposes Prop 8.

I thought the anti-Prop. 8 TV messages came out a bit late in combating the pro-Prop. 8 messages.  FWIW, I also think the anti-Prop. 8 ads don't stress the civil rights aspect of it enough.  They don't put a human face on it.

I think ultimately gay marriage is an issue thats going to end up before the United States Supreme Court and the question is how it will be framed to the Court.  Unless I am mistaken, the Supreme Courts of California and Connecticut have decided the issue, at least in part, on Equal Protection provisions of state constitutions.  I suspect that should Proposition 8 pass there will be a Federal challenge.*  What happens to the couples who have been married since the spring?  Are their marriages still recognized legally in California?     

*And I think Tom French has identified a really excellent equal protection reason: assesment of income tax by the Federal Government is unfairly administered to people in a civil union versus those who are married.

One vote is pride driven, another is hate driven.

But which side is the pride and which side is the hate?  Remember, no villain sees himself as the villain.

I'd say people like Rev. Wright comes across as hating white people just as much as someone in the KKK comes across as hating black people.

I really, really, really wish McCain hadn't been talked into selecting Palin as his running mate.  As her ever greater conservative social side comes out it's just like nails on a chalkboard.  As much as I thouroughly disagree with Obama on a lot of his non-social issues, I'm actually starting to rethink my support of McCain.  I'm not ready to jump ship yet, but I'll admit I'm drifting a bit.  I still like McCain and would much prefer he be President over Obama but the idea of Palin as President is starting to scare me more than Obama as President.  I just don't know.

Scott you have never looked sexier. :0)