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Scott Richards Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 22 September 2005 Posts: 1258
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| Posted: 26 October 2008 at 11:46am | IP Logged | 1
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Now, see, Obama has associated with an alleged terrorist (since Ayers' case never actually went to trial, did it.)
Knut, Osama Bin Laden hasn't gone to trial either. So is he an alleged terrorist? No, he's a terrorist. Being brought to trial has no bearing on it.
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Scott Richards Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 22 September 2005 Posts: 1258
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| Posted: 26 October 2008 at 11:48am | IP Logged | 2
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He was speaking about government agents who were illegally entering someones home.
Christopher, don't bring logic and circumstance into it.
***********
So even if logic and circumstance were brought into it, that makes it ok to kill government agents? Not at all, but an off the cuff remark is covered under freedom of speech, being a terrorist, like Ayres, is not.
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Scott Richards Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 22 September 2005 Posts: 1258
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| Posted: 26 October 2008 at 11:56am | IP Logged | 3
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Then why keep bringing up the adulterer?
Because, while it doesn't disqualify from running for office, it can call into question the judgment of the other person.
Of course an adulterer compared to a terrorist is like a pin prick
compared to a decapitation.
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Wayde Murray Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 14 October 2005 Location: Canada Posts: 3115
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| Posted: 26 October 2008 at 12:19pm | IP Logged | 4
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Scott wrote:
Because, while it doesn't disqualify from running for office, it can call into question the judgment of the other person.
I disagree. If I strike up an aquaintance with anyone with a shady past, start hanging around with them drinking beer and having fun, I might be displaying poor judgment in my selection of friends. That could be seen as a character flaw, and I might be thought of as someone who lacks good decision making abilities. On the other hand, if I have a desire to improve my community in some way, and the person most likely to assist or contribute toward that goal is someone with a shady past, and I choose to associate with him for the express purpose of achieving my stated goal of community improvment how does that indicate a lack of judgment on my part? I have a goal, I assess the abilities of those around me to assist me in attaining that goal, and I make the best use of their abilities to attain said goal. How is that an example of poor judgment?
Once again, there have been uncounted thousands who have associated with Bill Ayers and Jeremiah Wright during Obama's lifetime. Are you saying they ALL have faulty judgment, and they should ALL be forced to explain/excuse/renounce/reject that association?
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Knut Robert Knutsen Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 22 September 2006 Posts: 7369
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| Posted: 26 October 2008 at 12:21pm | IP Logged | 5
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"Being brought to trial has no bearing on it".
Technically it does. Though I thought my joke about McCain's "associations" would be enough to tip people off that I was deliberatly splitting hairs to turn things around. While certainly there seems no reason to doubt he was a terrorist, and he apparently admits it himself, he was never convicted. Which gives him a certain legal presumption of innocence.
A man suspected of or charged with a crime is appropriately termed an "alleged" criminal unless convicted. In terms of things that are legal but that people still react to, "alleged" denotes an assertion made that has neither been proven or acknowledged.
But in sloppy, inexact and "colloquial" language, of course you're right. Ayers is a terrorist, Obama a moslem, Palin a corrupt adulterous secessionist and McCain is a racist. Because just saying so without proof is exactly the same as proving it.
My point was merely that Ayers was not convicted of anything. A lot of people have gotten away with a lot worse with a dismissive remark that "well, they were never convicted."
Edited by Knut Robert Knutsen on 26 October 2008 at 12:22pm
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Scott Richards Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 22 September 2005 Posts: 1258
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| Posted: 26 October 2008 at 12:32pm | IP Logged | 6
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Are you saying they ALL have faulty judgment, and they should ALL be forced to explain/excuse/renounce/reject that association?
If they are running for President of the United States, yes, they should.
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William McCormick Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 26 February 2006 Posts: 3297
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| Posted: 26 October 2008 at 12:33pm | IP Logged | 7
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He was speaking about government agents who were illegally entering someones home.
Christopher, don't bring logic and circumstance into it.
***********
So even if logic and circumstance were brought into it, that makes it ok to kill government agents?
Not at all, but an off the cuff remark is covered under freedom of speech, being a terrorist, like Ayres, is not.
**************
I see. Ayres is a terrorist so that brings some kind of logic into Christopher's original remark.
Edited by William McCormick on 26 October 2008 at 12:34pm
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Scott Richards Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 22 September 2005 Posts: 1258
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| Posted: 26 October 2008 at 12:34pm | IP Logged | 8
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A man suspected of or charged with a crime is appropriately termed an
"alleged" criminal unless convicted. In terms of things that are legal
but that people still react to, "alleged" denotes an assertion made
that has neither been proven or acknowledged.
Ah, but Ayres has admitted what he did so there is nothing "alleged" about it.
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William McCormick Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 26 February 2006 Posts: 3297
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| Posted: 26 October 2008 at 12:35pm | IP Logged | 9
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Are you saying they ALL have faulty judgment, and they should ALL be forced to explain/excuse/renounce/reject that association?
If they are running for President of the United States, yes, they should.
***********
Obama has explained it. Numerous times. Apparently though, that isn't good enough.
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Matt Reed Byrne Robotics Security
Robotmod
Joined: 16 April 2004 Posts: 36483
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| Posted: 26 October 2008 at 12:45pm | IP Logged | 10
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Don't cloud the issue with facts, William.
Just had to get that one in 'cause it seems like the de facto snark reply. Anywho, you are correct. Obama has explained it numerous times. Over and over again. It'll never ever be satisfactory to many who decide that Obama working to help improve the community did so on a committee of many people one of whom was Ayers. Yes, that makes Obama a terrorist. He's "sneaky" and lacking in the ability to make "good" choices...because, you know, every single person all of us work with day in and day out are of the highest moral fiber. Ditto every single person we may work with in a group setting or, you know, in an office of 500 other employees (Ayers wife and Michelle Obama). Every. Single. One.
Riiiiiiiiiiight. Good luck with that.
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Knut Robert Knutsen Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 22 September 2006 Posts: 7369
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| Posted: 26 October 2008 at 12:57pm | IP Logged | 11
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"Ah, but Ayres has admitted what he did so there is nothing "alleged" about it."
Ah, he may have admitted to his actions with the Weather Underground, but he never admitted to being a terrorist, in fact he vehemently disputed the claim that he was. And since "Terrorism" describes the intent behind a crime, your assertion that he's a "terrorist" is an opinion with a touch of mind-reading and no legally determined proof. He acknowledges no such intent and no such intent has been legally proven. Hence: "alleged."
He is a vandal and radical bomber who bombed public buildings and monuments. That's the part he's not disputing.
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Wayde Murray Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 14 October 2005 Location: Canada Posts: 3115
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| Posted: 26 October 2008 at 12:58pm | IP Logged | 12
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Before anyone gets the feeling that I'm somehow picking on Scott, or Christopher, or anyone else who calls Obama's judgment into question, I want to clarify my position.
If you want to distrust or dislike Bill Ayers because of what he's done or what he stands for, be my guest.
If you want to distrust or dislike Barack Obama because of what he's done or what he stands for, ditto.
But if you want to distrust or dislike Barack Obama because of what Bill Ayers (or anyone else) did, then I'm going to call into question YOUR judgment, because that's precisely the kind of thinking that people like Joseph McCarthy utilized to destroy innocent people's lives.
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