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Topic: US Presidential Election (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Thom Price
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L’Homme Diabolique

Joined: 29 April 2004
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Posted: 26 October 2008 at 4:25pm | IP Logged | 1  

I'm simply questioning the use of the term "terrorism" when applied to pure property damage,

***

And when you become the arbiter of the English language, you'll have that right.  Until then -- like it or not -- "terrorism" by definition includes acts of violence against persons and property for the intention of coercion.  Ayers was a terrorist.

Do I care about Obama's teneuous, at best, relationship with him?  Nope.  But he was still a terrorist.

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Rich Rice
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Posted: 26 October 2008 at 4:25pm | IP Logged | 2  

Man up, Doods. Sometimes you have to call a Spade a Spade.



("groan.")
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Knut Robert Knutsen
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Posted: 26 October 2008 at 4:55pm | IP Logged | 3  

""terrorism" by definition includes acts of violence against persons and property"

By the FBI definition, which is not authoritative, not the United States Law Code or other legal codes that are authoritative on the issue of how to interpret the word. As I pointed out before.

Seriously, we're talking about the FBI definition here. They use definitions that are so broad that they can justify calling just about anything terrorism. With the latitude the Patriot Act especially gave them in terms of getting warrants or committing civil rights violations/ denying the accused rights, it's a wonder that purse-snatching isn't defined as "terrorism". Although it might be. Inarguably, property is being damaged if, say, the strap on the purse breaks.

If J. Edgar Hoover (and that's the period we're talking about with Ayres) had a Patriot Act, Martin Luther King Jr would have lived out his life in some 1960s equivalent of GITMO.

Oh, and you should pay attention to to your quote. It went from "persons or property" to "persons and property". Not the same thing.

I gave you the law's definition of terrorism. Do you have another legal definition of "terrorism"? Because quite frankly, the FBI definition holds no weight.

And don't tell me you can't see how the word "terrorist" is abused to create a false impression of what Ayres really did. Palin and the rest hide behind a definition not unlike the one you're using, while perfectly conscious that their audience will interpret the word "terrorist" the way I do. 

No-one out there is going "Hm, so Ayres was  a terrorist. I wonder if he was  a terrorist who only did property damage and scrupulously avoided damage to people or if he was a terrorist who deliberatly targeted civilians and killed lots of people. The word is so vague, I really need to look into this to make sure I know what they mean."

In its origins, in legal definitions, (US and internationally) and in common usage and understanding "terrorism" means targeting people, not just property. Most definitions agree on this, at least. The squabble in definitions is usually about what counts as a legitimate or illegitimate target and the difference between freedom fighters and terrorists.

The FBI has a specialized, broad definition, that I suppose is the origin of the word's use in such contexts as "eco-terrorism" or the like. But it's hardly accepted usage in other contexts. Of what use is a term that doesn't distinguish between property and people?

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Scott Richards
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Posted: 26 October 2008 at 5:25pm | IP Logged | 4  

I'm simply questioning the use of the term "terrorism" when applied to pure property damage, where it's not intended to be anything other than property damage and no people are targeted.

Knut, if someone has bomb on them and they run into a crowd but they wired it incorrectly so it fizzles instead of exploding, are they still a terrorist?  Ayres intention was to kill people.  He just screwed up. 
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Kevin Hagerman
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Posted: 26 October 2008 at 5:28pm | IP Logged | 5  

Very good point, Scott.  I wish you could apply that kind of nuance to "pals around"...
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Thom Price
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L’Homme Diabolique

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Posted: 26 October 2008 at 5:28pm | IP Logged | 6  

 Do you have another legal definition of "terrorism"?

***

United Nations:
1997 International Convention for the Suppression of Terrorist Bombings (Terrorist Bombing Convention)
"Creates a regime of universal jurisdiction over the unlawful and intentional use of explosives and other lethal devices in, into, or against various defined public places with intent to kill or cause serious bodily injury, or with intent to cause extensive destruction of the public place."

United Kingdom
Terrorism Act 2000
(b) involves serious damage to property

United States
U.S. Code of Federal Regulations
the unlawful use of force and violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives

And, of course, just the definition of the word according to the English language:

The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.



Edited by Thom Price on 26 October 2008 at 5:29pm
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Marc Baptiste
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Posted: 26 October 2008 at 5:33pm | IP Logged | 7  

For me, as a plain old "Joe" --- it's the "terror" in TERRORism that helps me distinguish between a "garden-variety" crime and a terrorist act.  For me, 9/11 and the Oklahoma City bombings were acts of terrorism.

The bombing of an abortion clinic or gay bar intended to strike terror in the hearts of an entire class of people, with the intent to getting them to "change their ways" (coercion)... may technically fit the definition of terrorism, but it is still hard for me to view them that way.  Not because I don't find murder and destruction of property with intent to coerce a vile thing, but, I think I just don't want to give such people the kind of political cache that comes with being a "terrorist".  It's kind of like "dumbing-down" a word or phrase.  The mob often committed acts of extreme violence with intent to coerce, are they now terrorists?

Did I just agree with Sarah Palin? OH, F*CK ME.




Edited by Marc Baptiste on 26 October 2008 at 5:35pm
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Scott Richards
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Posted: 26 October 2008 at 5:38pm | IP Logged | 8  

Starting your career in someone's living room fits the definition of palling around, IMO.  Not all "pals" are forever.  Some people only keep friendships until they become inconvenient.
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Matt Reed
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Joined: 16 April 2004
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Posted: 26 October 2008 at 5:46pm | IP Logged | 9  

Oh please.  That sort of innuendo is beneath you, Scott.
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Kevin Hagerman
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Posted: 26 October 2008 at 6:13pm | IP Logged | 10  

New to the thread, Matt?
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Marcio Ferreira
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Posted: 26 October 2008 at 6:25pm | IP Logged | 11  

hey Matt, you could have opened a new thread just on the terrorism topic...
this seems endless...
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Mike O'Brien
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Official JB Historian

Joined: 18 April 2004
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Posted: 26 October 2008 at 6:26pm | IP Logged | 12  

Man, you want to see Obama palling around with terrorists? 

Dig this: http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/5580bbef82

According to Sarah (Gina Gershon) Palin, he goes skiing with them!

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