| Posted: 28 April 2008 at 1:04pm | IP Logged | 10
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"Knut -- I think your history of Israel as "Palestinians losing half their land to a bunch of immigrants being supported by Western Europe and the US due to their collective guilt for their actions or inactions during the Holocaust" is not fully accurate. Prior to 1948 there was a SIZABLE Zionist movement in Israel (then Palestine) and prior to the War the UK had looked to the founding of a Jewish state in Palestine. So the "payback for the holocaust" origin is not a complete history."
Yes, prior to 1948, there was a sizeable Zionist movement. But a lot of those were recent immigrants, many of them illegal. Prior to 1895 would be another matter entirely. And yes, the UK had considered founding a Jewish state there, I know. They'd been petitioned for that for a very long time. But the Uk didn't establish Israel, so whether they intended to do so or not is of little relevance, except to say that the authority of a colonial power doesn't determine the rightness of a thing.
"Israel got less than 20% of Palestine."
78 percent of historical Palestine was sectioned off into Jordan. Of the Palestine that remained, Israel at first got 55 percent to 45 percent for Arabs, their percentage of the whole increased to 17 percent vs 5 percent after the 1948 war and to 22 percent after 1967 and under the current occupation. But the Arabs left in the 22 percent Palestine didn't have the option of resettling in Jordan, so to them the other 78 percent was irrelevant.
Of the 22 percent that remained, that is now known as Palestine / Israel -- Israel has more than half.
But the question isn't whether Israel currently has 22 percent or 50 percent of historical Palestine (Or what we mean by Palestine) but whether they were entitled to any?
We do not recognize the property rights of conquered and displaced peoples 2000 years after the fact. Certainly no-one in the US could argue that with a straight face. The Israeli property rights are based on "Right of Conquest" in the few decades leading up to 1948, not a religious claim thousands of years old. This is a clear violation of the rights of the people who lived there at the time, the Arabs.
Political good will from the Super-powers and former colonial powers, much of it brought about by two wildly divergent sentiments - guilt over the Holocaust and "good riddance to the remaining jews", is part of why Israel managed to hang onto the territories and why it is so difficult to address the situation.
Aside from the 2000 year old claim, Israel is just a colony of stateless European settlers established by force and terror to the detriment of the native people.
As an atheist, I cannot accept a religious claim that "Israel" is destined to belong to the jews and that it therefore is justifiable to use any means to preserve it. And what other claim is there?
"Israel" isn't just occupying the Palestinian territories, it's occupying "Israel". The UN recognized part of that land as Israel in an effort to compromise, but Israel has taken it all (all of the 22 percent lot). Israel has been poking its nose at the UN for over 40 years on this matter, as an illegal occupying force.
Yes, at this point, with so many generations growing up there and livving there, and the original settlers soon all dead we're at a point where an amicable compromise would hopefully be the best solution. But that solution can't be reached with an inaccurate view of the roots of the conflict. Such as thinking that the Palestinians are the only bad guys here.
And as for the part about "State sponsored terrorism"? That only applies when the actions calculated to terrorize are carried out by the government or with the blessings of the government. I find it hard to believe that all the "terrorizing" actions on either side are carried out by private individuals, unconnected to authority and completely cut off from government or political pressure.
Edit: Oh and we should get back on topic. Obama good. Hilary scary. Mccain Cryptkeeper.
Edited by Knut Robert Knutsen on 28 April 2008 at 1:17pm
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