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Wes Wescovich
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 June 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 1726
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| Posted: 25 July 2006 at 1:03am | IP Logged | 1
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The reason for JB's exclusion from the Cockrum tribute book is directly addressed on the Cockrum board by Dave himself. Cockrum claims that when he first became seriously ill that JB made the following statement here on the JBF about his work :
'Well, if you put enough lines down, SOME of them are BOUND to be in the right place.'
I don't remember such a statement, nor do I believe it was said. But sadly, this was believed to be true by the Cockrums, leading Paty to "ban" JB from the tribute book. It's so sad that a simple email or phone call to JB could have cleared this up and the gorgeous Colossus drawing that JB did for the book would have been included.
Edited by Wes Wescovich on 25 July 2006 at 1:04am
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Mike O'Brien
Byrne Robotics Member
Official JB Historian
Joined: 18 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 10927
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| Posted: 25 July 2006 at 2:15am | IP Logged | 2
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Bah! Must we relive that debacle?? Wes, JB said things almost like that, yet, in the bigger context of the quote, he was praising Cockrum's art. In the end, it was revealed that there were hard feelings from the Cockrum camp dating back years - or at least, Paty suggested this on that site of theirs - but you could never tell it from JB's constant praise of Cockrum here.
In the end, for reasons that are entirely theirs to decide, they decided that they didn't need a free piece of art that was intended to help someone in an act of charity. And JB told us all to buy the book anyway.
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Wes Wescovich
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 June 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 1726
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| Posted: 25 July 2006 at 2:28am | IP Logged | 3
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I know what you mean about the context, Mike. I was just giving Matthew an answer to his question as completely as I could within the boundaries of tact. As far as "in the end" (you're first one), I also agree with you. But the reason I cite is lauded over there as the last, or at least most recent, decision for the exclusion. Therefore agreeing with your second "in the end". What are you doing, writing "chose your adventure" books now? Ah, nevermind, it's late. Even on the West Coast.
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Mike O'Brien
Byrne Robotics Member
Official JB Historian
Joined: 18 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 10927
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| Posted: 25 July 2006 at 2:34am | IP Logged | 4
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hm! I loved those books when I was a kid..!
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Matthew McCallum
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 July 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 2710
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| Posted: 25 July 2006 at 3:02am | IP Logged | 5
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Thanks for the reply and sorry to scratch at an old sore, Wes and Mike. Although it wasn't likely an item one could easily look up in the FAQs. (Wait a minute -- that's what we need: an entire FAQ section listing all the people who are angry at John Byrne and the reasons rightly or wrongly why! [*grin*])
It is a tragic shame that in this era of pervasive global communication that so much miscommunication continues to exist. Alas, I've learned over the years there are just some people who are happier being upset all the time...
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Mike O'Brien
Byrne Robotics Member
Official JB Historian
Joined: 18 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 10927
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| Posted: 25 July 2006 at 3:22am | IP Logged | 6
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Oh, yeah, Matthew, I didn't mean to sound catty about it - but considering the charity aspect of it, it stands out as one of the more uncomfortable incidents to me...
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Joe Mayer
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 24 January 2005
Posts: 1397
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| Posted: 25 July 2006 at 5:58am | IP Logged | 7
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Wes, JB said things almost like that, yet, in the bigger context of the quote, he was praising Cockrum's art.
****
But nobody pays attention to the larger scheme anymore, its all about soundbites. Heck, look at JBs reaction to Gaiman's quote about Kirby. There he took one line and went off, yet in the larger scheme of things, he was simply praising the guy. It happens to everyone, I don't know anyone above those type of reactions in human nature.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 135960
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| Posted: 25 July 2006 at 7:26am | IP Logged | 8
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"'Well, if you put enough lines down, SOME of them are BOUND to be in the right place.'"*** I have seen this referenced as the root of the "bad blood", but there are a number of reasons I have trouble believing this can actually be the case. For one thing, as Mike O'B notes, this is a partial and inaccurate "quote", lifted out of context. Many months ago, in a discussion of why more books are not shot from the pencils, I was explaining how many artists produce pencils that are simply not "camera ready" -- or, at least, were not in the days before grey tones became an option. I refered to some of these artists as belonging to the "thousand line school", noting that the aprroach is to lay down a "thousand lines" with the assumption that some of them will be in the right place. I pointed to Dave Cockrum and Curt Swan as artists whose work fell into this category, and went on the say that altho the pencils were "gorgeous", they did not lend themselves well to reproduction. I can see, I suppose, where someone might have a problem with the "thousand line school" reference, taken out of context -- but there is an additional wrinkle to this tale. The first time I used that phrase was in a conversation with Dave up at the old Marvel Offices. I was soon to be taking over on UNCANNY, and Dave and I were chatting about the differences in our approaches to penciling. I noted that I was (then) so anal about my pencils that I practically carved each line into the page, pressing so hard that I was constantly having to sharpen my pencil, I broke the point so often. Dave, I noted, had a much freer, looser line, and I coined the "thousand line" reference on the spot, causing Dave to chuckle in agreement. (Roger Stern, in whose office this conversation took place, added his own observation, saying that it could be said that I also applied a "thousand lines", but that I went back and forth over the same line, hence the deep scribing of the page.) So, since Dave was amused by, and agreed with, the comment originally, it seems unlikely this could really be the cause of the "problem".
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Darren Taylor
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 April 2004
Location: Scotland
Posts: 6068
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| Posted: 25 July 2006 at 7:39am | IP Logged | 9
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Lost in translation maybe, like retelling a joke that -was- hillarious at the time but not-so funny in the cold light of day?
I've often recounted something that I thought was funny to [edit] my [end edit] wife who has picked up a different meaning to the joke (through I'll imagine a combination of my recount and a lack of context)
Not trying to imply that this is what happened with Paty...ish. Couples are presented as though it's a eutopian experience but there can be huge running battles and it is more often than not that I've seen one partner hugely dominant over the other...
Edited by Darren Taylor on 25 July 2006 at 7:40am
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 135960
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| Posted: 25 July 2006 at 7:50am | IP Logged | 10
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Lost in translation maybe, like retelling a joke that -was- hillarious at the time but not-so funny in the cold light of day?*** As I mentioned in another thread, the ex-husband of a close friend of mine used to work for Henry Kissinger. He told me this story: He traveled with Kissinger to Japan on one occasion, where he listened to his boss give an address to an audience of Japanese dignitaries. He noted that, when Kissinger told a joke, half the audience laughed, the other did not. Later he found out why. It seems that one half of the hall was being covered by one translator, the other half by another. The first translator, when Kissinger told his joke, replaced it with a Japanese joke, while the second merely translated the joke. Remembering the laserdisc version of "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" I immediately saw what he meant. On the disc, there is a "special feature" in which the "taunting scene" is shown in the Japanese translation -- and it can be viewed in English, but with the Japanese translation in English subtitles. The line "Your mother was a hamster, and your father smelled of elderberries!" becomes "I can imagine what kind of people your parents were!" Not quite boffo yoks, hunh?
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Darren Taylor
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 April 2004
Location: Scotland
Posts: 6068
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| Posted: 25 July 2006 at 7:54am | IP Logged | 11
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Exactly.I guess this is a case of people presuming to know your intentions better than you do yourself John...starting to sound like a curse rather than bad luck.
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Stéphane Garrelie
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 August 2005
Location: France
Posts: 4283
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| Posted: 25 July 2006 at 8:13am | IP Logged | 12
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John Byrne wrote:"It seems unlikely this could really be the cause of the problem."
According to Dave and Paty it is. Cause for what i understand you said this when Dave was at the hospital between life and death.
It is certainly quoted out of context. And I am happy to have your version. It makes more sense.
but...
(will i say it?)
Bad timing once again.
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Topic Closed)
