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Topic: A Thought Experiment on the Shakespeare Authorship Question Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Stéphane Garrelie
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Posted: 03 May 2025 at 5:17am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Yes, but the problem is that the alternative proposals are not evidence based.
We see problems in the tradition.
We come with alternative models and try to find a candidate that fits.
It's speculation over speculation.



Edited by Stéphane Garrelie on 03 May 2025 at 7:47am
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Steven Brake
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Posted: 03 May 2025 at 8:07am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

JB wrote: The single greatest argument against the Stratford man is the man himself, his near total lack of connection to the theater or writing of any kind.

SB replied: From around 1594, William Shakespeare is a shareholder in the theatrical troupe The Lord Chamberlains' Men. Other members of the troupe include Richard Burbage, Henry Condell and John Heminges. 

In 1603, William Shakespeare is named as being part of  a new theatrical company, The King's Men, which includes Richard Burbage, Henry Condell and John Heminges.

In 1616, William Shakespeare dies. In his will, he leaves small bequests to Richard Burbage, Henry Condell and John Heminges.

In 1609, Richard Burbage dies.

In 1623, the First Folio is published. Condell and Heminges state that it has been produced to commemorate the memory of the man they'd known and worked with for decades, and that the plays in it should supersede earlier publications, "surreptitious copies, maimed and deformed by frauds and stealths of injurious impostors".
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Steven Brake
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Posted: 03 May 2025 at 8:26am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Mark Haslett wrote:..much has been added to our understanding about dating the plays, the roles of the aristocracy in play-writing (particularly the Earl of Oxford's role), and to the lives of the two men who are forever linked to the work-- the 3rd Earl of Southampton and the eldest son of an illegal wool dealer from Stratford named "William Shaksper".

SB replied: What bearing has John Shakespeare's occupation, illegal or otherwise, have upon Will's authorship?

Mark Haslett wrote: It was 7 years after he died before the first whisper of what would become the "Stratfordian myth" even began.

SB replied: Shakespeare was acclaimed for his writing in Frances Meres Palladis Tamia, published in 1598.

He was also subject to jibes too, generally accepted to being alluded to in Robert Greene's A Groats-worth of Wit (1592) and more directly in The Parnassus Plays (around 1598-1602), derided as someone uneducated who thinks he can write as well as those who've been to university.

Whether being praised or criticised, there's nothing to suggest that Shakespeare wasn't regarded as being the author of the plays that bore his name.
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Steven Brake
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Posted: 03 May 2025 at 8:35am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

Petter wrote: As it is, the author resides inside a "black hole" of information, which makes it hard for me to understand the absolutely certainty of the Stratfordians. I mean, one thing is to believe that Shaxsper is Shakespeare, but to dismiss all doubt? 

SB replied: Alternative Authorship arguments are essentially negative, making a case against rather than a case for. If you want to doubt Will's authorship - well, fine. But what reasonable alternative do you suggest?
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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 03 May 2025 at 1:03pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Stephane: Yes, but the problem is that the alternative proposals are not
evidence based.
We see problems in the tradition.
We come with alternative models and try to find a candidate that fits.
It's speculation over speculation.

**
Here is how you lose me.

It is a baseless slander to call the alternate cases, about which you only
read a 30 year old skeptical account, “not evidence based.” Even if this
weee true, you aren’t in a position to say you know it’s true, because you
haven’t examined the cases made or the evidence yourself.

If this were an unsolved murder mystery, you wouldn’t say that you need
alternate suspects before you can stop trying to pin the crime on the first
guy that gets picked up.

If there is evidence which would stop any conviction for the first guy, then
he is out of the running. Even if all the other suspects you can think of can’t
be convicted, they are more likely to have done it than the guy who could
not have done it.

Why do you feel setting aside the Stratford hypothesis compels you to find
an alternate? I don’t. I don’t currently have a firm opinion of how all the
works were written, but the plays and poems and history have taken on new
life through examining the evidence.
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Stéphane Garrelie
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Posted: 03 May 2025 at 2:25pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

We are not speaking a recent event or something about which some major discovery has been done. The fact that this book is 30 years old doesn't make it less accurate. It is still a reference.

Particulary, the arguments against the alterative candidates still stand.

It certainly may be entertaining to play the detective, but you need to have a more serious case than what has been presented so far, including by you in this thread, before considering changing a traditional attribution that may repose on few elements, by others that have even less and are more determined by prejudice, taste for mystery and "hidden treasures".

To look in the works for elements that will give you an idea of who the man behind the work was, is methodologically ok, even if it implies to be careful. You can very easily take a wrong road this way.

To  look for candidates that fit that portrayal is fine.

But then, you need proof. You don't justifie hypotheses by other hypotheses. That's not enough. You can't just build a narative.

Particularly when there's already a tradition, just because you're not convinced by the traditional attribution and (against the majority of scholars) you prefer a fringe theory.

That doesn't mean that fringe theory can't be true, but until you can prove it, it is only that.

In the case of Shakespeare, what we actually have is a body work linked by a common name. There're also stylistic reasons beside the tradition to consider most of them have a common author, a few are works done in collaboration, and a few others (that at a point or another have been attributted to the author) are apocryphal. There's still doubt for some.

But we have a name, that name is Shake-speare or Shakespeare.

And there are hints pointing to the Statford man. Way not enough to be sure it's him, and some are suspicious. Based on this, a tradition has been built.

We also have to take in consideration Cromwell, the Commonwealth of England, and the interdiction of theaters. And also the fact that, judging by his works, Shakespeare wasn't favorable to protestantism. All that may explain why we don't find more, and even why the Stratford man may have not been remembered, at a point, as a man of theater (either actor or the author of the plays.)

So on scarce elements, a narative was built to give an author of flesh and blood to what is essentially an anonymous work. It's an operating enough explanation, something to satisfy the taste of the public.

There're problems, but it is good enough, given how few we know.

But not everybody finds it good enough, and it is fine. They get from the works another idea of the author and doubt the elements that point to the Stratford man. Well, it is true they are light, so if you can find something better, don't hesitate to look for it. They find a candidate that fits their idea, that's not the same for all, but it's normal at that point. This is when you need proof. But they find no proof.

Excepted the ideas they have of the actual author, of their candidate and of the Stratford man. Their versions also, are built on wind.

So either accept that the work is anonymous, and that we have only hints of who the author COULD be, or you have the choice between following the official and traditional narative if you really need one, or chose one of the outsiders.






Edited by Stéphane Garrelie on 03 May 2025 at 2:54pm
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Petter Myhr Ness
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Posted: 03 May 2025 at 2:27pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

The reasonable alternative, Steven, is that someone else wrote them! 
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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 03 May 2025 at 2:40pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Stephane: Particulary, the arguments against the alterative candidates still stand.

**

They didn't stand when he wrote them. They stand much less so now after 30 years of additional investigation.

Calling a theory "fringe" is arguing from authority.

But arguing from evidence, the Stratford man has no claim. Nothing connects him to the works or explains in any way how the evidence would be as we find it if he were. Everything, from the anonymous plays, the contmporary narrative that "Shakespeare" was a pen name, to the fact no one in Stratford or anywhere else connected the works to that town makes the traditional story an obviously incorrect theory of the case.

Edited by Mark Haslett on 03 May 2025 at 2:45pm
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Stéphane Garrelie
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Posted: 03 May 2025 at 2:42pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Well, Mark, here we'll have to go with the traditional "We have to agree to disagree."


Edited by Stéphane Garrelie on 03 May 2025 at 2:43pm
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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 03 May 2025 at 2:53pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Stephane: It certainly may be entertaining to play the detective, but you need to have a more serious case than what has been presented so far, including by you in this thread, before considering changing a traditional attribution that may repose on few elements, by others that have even less and are more determined by prejudice, taste for mystery and "hidden treasures".

**

Yes, we'll have to agree to disagree because the only way one can hold to what you say here is to dismiss evidence with conjecture as you have been doing.

If a single piece of incontrovertible evidence connected William Shaksper of Stratford to writing the works, then there would be no debate.

One single piece of incontrovertible evidence.

Edited by Mark Haslett on 03 May 2025 at 2:54pm
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Stéphane Garrelie
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Posted: 03 May 2025 at 2:56pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

And the same for the outsiders.
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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 03 May 2025 at 3:05pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Stephane: And the same for the outsiders.

**

I'll agree with you (grateful to see any common ground).

But, in this light-- all of the candidates are equally distant from a secure claim.

Even if, for the sake of argument, we let tradition give Shaksper a privileged seat at the table of candidates-- that is what we are left with: a table of candidates.

Only a lack of interest in knowing the author can let it stop there. I am far from having a lack of interest in that.
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