Author |
|
John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 134237
|
Posted: 02 May 2025 at 10:14am | IP Logged | 1
|
post reply
|
|
JB's theory that the name came from the comedians to have a recognizable brand for the public is also something believable.••• From the publishers. Don’t know where you got “comedians” from.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
Stéphane Garrelie Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 05 August 2005 Location: France Posts: 4238
|
Posted: 02 May 2025 at 10:59am | IP Logged | 2
|
post reply
|
|
Yep. I was refering to this 2021 post, that i paste:
*******John Byrne, from "The Stratford Man" thread, 25 January 2021, page 9 *********
Even simpler: De Vere used no pen name. The Work was created for the entertainment of his peers, who knew who he was. But the Work also “trickled down” to the public theater, and largely out of Oxford’s control. The Work proved enormously popular, and producers and printers wanted to mark the “brand” so audiences would know what to look for. Enter Shaxsper. By his own effort or by election (by Jonson?) he becomes the face of the Work.* The first printer to use the name, tho, wants to make sure everyone knows this bumpkin from Stratford is not the Author and adds a wink and a nod to the title page, spelling the name phonetically and with a hyphen, Shake-speare. As previously noted, to a savvy audience, the second S being lower case would indicate a false name. _________ * A little too much so, perhaps. Hence the “upstart crow”. ************************************************************ ********************* Having read the 15 pages (just yours and Mark posts, and that was already a lot, but it was to give personalised answers in the present discussion), my memory only kept the idea that it was written by de Vere to entertain his friends, that a troupe of comedians got it in a way or another. AND THIS IS WHERE, my memory got it wrong: i had the idea you said they branded it to make the plays recognisable as from the same author for the public, and that the editor simply adopted that brand.
Edited by Stéphane Garrelie on 02 May 2025 at 5:27pm
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
Stéphane Garrelie Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 05 August 2005 Location: France Posts: 4238
|
Posted: 02 May 2025 at 11:08am | IP Logged | 3
|
post reply
|
|
No, actually, it is a few pages earlier, page 4.i paste your post:
*******John Byrne, from "The Stratford Man" thread, 17 January 2021, page 2 ************************
Let's assume for a moment that the works were, in fact, produced by a peer of the realm. Someone who did not want his name associated with them once they found their way out into the world beyond the courtly audiences for which they were written. Since that peer, Edward De Vere, was the ward and son-in-law of William Cecil, Lord Burghley, the most powerful man in Elizabeth's court, and someone who would himself have been embarrassed to have De Vere's name connected to the public theater, no one would have been in any kind of rush to "out" De Vere. But the Works were proving very popular, and theater producers and publishers needed a "brand" to identify this profitable commodity. (The Works were first publlshed anonymously.) The concept of someone serving as a "front" was known in Elizabethan times, as it is today. And there was this minor theatrical person, from Stratford, who could easily be persuaded to lend his name to publication. De Vere would never protest, of course, and the theaters and printers could continue to make money off the Works. When the name is first used, it becomes "Shake-speare", a not uncommon variant, given the wide range of spelling of even the most common words in those days. Theatrical tradition of the time had the hyphen followed by a lower case letter (as opposed to "Smith-Jones" for instance) indicating a false name. Just a coincidence, perhaps, or perhaps something to cue the literate readers of the time that the name was, as suggested, merely a "brand". Note, no conspiracies needed. Just people trying to make money while keeping out of trouble. Heminge and Condell have a slightly shaky connection to the Stratford Man. He leaves them commemorative rings in his will, but the bequest is written between the lines, and in a different hand. A "ret-con" perhaps, to shore up their claim to be the representatives of the Author? And why does the First Folio contain a dedication that refers to the Author as if he's dead, seven years before Straford Will shuffled off this mortal coil? ************************************************************ So, you could still have thought of the publishers, but since it was associated with the theater producers, i got the idea that the troupe of comedians, either its head or collegially, got the idea.
Edited by Stéphane Garrelie on 02 May 2025 at 11:59am
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
Mark Haslett Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 19 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 6828
|
Posted: 02 May 2025 at 1:10pm | IP Logged | 4
|
post reply
|
|
I once held as you do, Stephane, that it’s all unsolvable so what’s to be done?
I no longer find that position defensible.
If you took my “thought experiment” on its own terms, you should poke holes in it using details that reflect the realities of the way Shakespeare’s name and the connection of it to Stratford happened.
My presentation is accurate. And being so demonstrates how ludicrous it is to argue that the evidence points to the Stratford man. Almost all of the evidence points away from Stratford. All of it fit together nicely when we suppose the author is someone else.
Sorting out who the real author may be has its challenges, but it becomes a worthy endeavor once one admits there is a hidden author (or authors) at work.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
Mark Haslett Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 19 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 6828
|
Posted: 02 May 2025 at 1:13pm | IP Logged | 5
|
post reply
|
|
Stephane: Having read the 15 pages (just yours and Mark posts, and that was already a lot, but it was to give personalised answers in the present discussion), **
WOW.
I hope it was at least fun or rewarding in its own way?
Thanks for the effort!
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
Mark Haslett Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 19 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 6828
|
Posted: 02 May 2025 at 1:22pm | IP Logged | 6
|
post reply
|
|
Stephane: Can we take seriously the epigrams that, in Shakespeare's time or soon after his death, seem to doubt he is the author? Why not, but it is not the same than the serious doubts of the last alf of the XVIIIth century and even less than the structured attacks we have since the XIXth century. I am aware of nothing more than those, but if you are speaking of something else, please tell.
**
Hold on right there.
To answer the second part briefly, yes, I believe I am speaking of claims which you are not referring to and would be happy to point you towards.
But before we go there, let’s examine your first point.
You suggest the published doubts From the day are less serious than anti- Stratfordian claims made hundreds of years later. Is that correct?
I would like to answer with a small question.
What possible reason would anyone have to publish claims that Shakespeare was a pen name if it was not so?
And, if I may, one more question: why didn’t anyone anywhere at any time present even a week counter argument to these claims in the day?
One thing that we do know about the Stratford man is that he was petty and litigious. He paid handsomely for a coat of arms, which he did not really deserve. So, a third question: Would such a man really be silent in defending the honor of his life’s work?
I am not trying to be evasive, but I think the foundation of your question is more important than my answers listing all of the people who claimed in print to know something about the hidden author behind the Shakespeare pen name.
Edited by Mark Haslett on 02 May 2025 at 1:35pm
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
Stéphane Garrelie Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 05 August 2005 Location: France Posts: 4238
|
Posted: 02 May 2025 at 5:09pm | IP Logged | 7
|
post reply
|
|
If the Stratford man is who you think he is he would act as you say. But that's the whole question. Someone smarter may be more careful about his public persona than in things he assumes will stay private. Actually, a smart Shakespeare could be both a ferocious businessman and someone who built his author persona in a smarter way. But once again you point to what goes against the possibility the Stratford man is the author. I am not arguing that problems and doubts exist. I said it is a tradition. It may be built on wind, but as long as there's no proof the author is one of the other candidates, or even someone unknown, the anteriority and even more the tradition itself are reasons enough to, if we really want to propose an identity for the author, stick to this one. There's no need for other uncertain candidates. It is legit to look for it, and it became a part of the legend. It's interesting, it may be fun, but it is not serious until proved right.
We can also take the works for themselves and the biography of the Stratford man as a legend. It is a legendary tradition, that may be the truth or not.
And an allusion (particularly if it is humorous but even if it isn't) differes of an argumented theory.
Did Homer exist? Is the Sir Thomas Malory who wrote Le Morte Darthur, the one Sir Thomas Malory of Newbold Revel proposed by PJC Field? That sort of thing is nothing new. There's a tradition in some cases, a serious candidate proposed by scholars in others, sometime with a solid and scientific argumentation, but no definitive conclusion. All we can say is maybe. This is believable or not. But in the end it doesn't matter as much as the work itself. And until we get a definitive proof, we have to say that we don't know for sure. We have to be honest and underline the weaknesses of all the cases. Speculation is only speculation.
Edited by Stéphane Garrelie on 02 May 2025 at 5:40pm
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 134237
|
Posted: 02 May 2025 at 5:16pm | IP Logged | 8
|
post reply
|
|
It should be noted that there is no record of Stratford Will having involved himself in the printing and publishing of his works. Odd, in someone concerned with protecting his “identity.”
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
|
|