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Steven Brake Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 01 January 2016 Posts: 700
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Posted: 05 May 2025 at 5:03pm | IP Logged | 1
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JB wrote: We all know Mark Twain wrote HUCKLEBERRY FINN. Does that make Mark Twain a real person?
SB replied: Nope. In the same that George Orwell is the author of Animal Farm and Nineteen Eighty-Four (and other works, of course), while not having been a real person.
JB wrote: To extend the legal metaphor, the mountain of circumstantial evidence surrounding De Vere—much exceeding what we know of Shaksper—would be enough to generate a conviction in most courts.
SB replied: And yet that William Shakespeare of Stratford-Upon-Avon was the author of the plays ascribed to William Shakespeare in the First Folio (and elsewhere, of course) is the received opinion of virtually everyone, while De Vere (or anyone else) being the true author has remained pretty much a fringe theory.
Edited by Steven Brake on 05 May 2025 at 5:07pm
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Steven Brake Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 01 January 2016 Posts: 700
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Posted: 05 May 2025 at 5:20pm | IP Logged | 2
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Michael Penn wrote (in response to Scott Gary): If by "actual" you mean tangible evidence, some physical item or object, or documentary evidence, that demonstrates directly and unambiguously that De Vere was the author of the works of Shakespeare -- right. There is nothing like that.
SB replied: If there's no evidence, there's not much of a case.
Michael Penn wrote: (Doubters certainly argue there's nothing like that in re Stratford Will as well.)
SB replied: Hand D in the manuscript of Sir Thomas More, being named in the royal charter creating The King's Men alongside John Heminges and Henry Condell, who are in turn named in Will of Stratford's - uhm - will, and who in turn name him as the author of the plays they collect and arrange to be published in the First Folio which include a poem by Ben Jonson which, while teasing Shakespeare for his lack of learning, nevertheless extols his art, with Jonson subsequently making more scathing remarks about Shakespeare's supposed artistic deficiencies in his conversation with William Drummond and more mildly later again in his De Shakespeare Nostrat - but, while varying in his opinions of Shakespeare's writing, never once stating or even suggesting that he was not the author.
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Mark Haslett Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 19 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 6859
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Posted: 05 May 2025 at 5:23pm | IP Logged | 3
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Scott: So...
...Is everyone agreed on this much, at least?
**
Good questions, Scott. The answer is no. Every point has its complications. First: was Shaksper of Stratford an actor?
There is no evidence to support the claims that Shaksper of Stratford was ever an actor in records for the Lord Chamberlain’s Men or any other company. The real actor-sharers with the Lord Chamberlain’s/King’s Men, John Hemmings, Augustine Phillips, Thomas Pope, and William Kempe, all have solid early histories with other companies- some with specific roles they were known to have played-- the record for Shakespeare as an actor before joining the Company in 1594-5 is a blank.
The only contemporary support for Stratford Will as an actor is that we find "William Shakespeare"s name on the lists of actors in two plays written, and published, by Ben Jonson in 1616 (the year Shaksper of Stratford died, long after he disappeared from London).
This is something Ben Jonson reports in his Folio of his own works, including works that allude to Shakespeare as a hidden poet.
Jonson is a chief architect of the First Folio-- where we find no clues about the author's personal life, but we do find some of the strongest clues that THE AUTHOR is not to be confused with a real person named "William Shakespeare". Listed in the back among the actors is the name "William Shakespeare" so that would be evidence FOR him as an actor, if we could connect the man from Stratford either to writing the works or to acting-- but this is a reference published 7 years after his death by a double-talker who is the only source of any other claims that "Shakespeare" was an actor.
And Jonson was a "double-talker". His chief work, according to his most informed scholars, was secrecy and deception. Nothing he ever said about Shakespeare can be taken at face value or as third-party support that the guy from Stratford was an actor.
So there is no way to conclusively state William of Stratford was an actor.
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Steven Brake Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 01 January 2016 Posts: 700
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Posted: 05 May 2025 at 5:32pm | IP Logged | 4
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Mark Haslett wrote: This is good evidence that Oxford, who was widely praised for writing plays that no one can locate, wrote these works performed by his troupe.
SB replied: As I understand it, a major part of the Oxfordian argument is the claim that, as an aristocrat, it would have been improper, perhaps even deeply shocking, for someone of Oxford's rank to have been seen as a mere playwright.
The fact that he was "widely praised" and suffered no consequences pretty much explodes that argument, doesn't it?
Not only is there no evidence that he ever used a pseudonym, but obviously there was no need for him to have done so.
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Mark Haslett Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 19 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 6859
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Posted: 05 May 2025 at 5:33pm | IP Logged | 5
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Scott: And Richard Field also grew up in Stratford at the same time?
And Richard Field moved to London and published poems attributed to William Shakespeare?
**
No.
Richard Field grew up and left Stratford before Will Shaksper grew up. Their fathers were not friends. Their business connections were not extensive and no evidence of friendship remains.
Field moved to London when Shaksper was a boy and apprenticed in a successful London printing shop. He took over the printing shop when he married his mentor's widow. Being a successful print shop is at least as likely an explanation for how Venus & Adonis landed at his shop than any completely fabricated "friendship" Field is supposed to have had with a kid he never knew from a town he hadn't lived in for 15 years.
Field briefly owned the publishing rights to Venus & Adonis, but sold them before he even printed the first edition of the poem. The following year, Field printed the first edition of "Lucrece", a second poem from Shakespeare. Field never owned the publishing rights for that and was merely the hired printer-- as he was for every consequent reprint of either poem.
So, no-- he did not grow up in Stratford at the same time as, or "publish" poems attributed to, William Shakespeare.
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Steven Brake Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 01 January 2016 Posts: 700
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Posted: 05 May 2025 at 5:48pm | IP Logged | 6
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Mark Haslett wrote: Jonson is a chief architect of the First Folio-- where we find no clues about the author's personal life, but we do find some of the strongest clues that THE AUTHOR is not to be confused with a real person named "William Shakespeare".
SB replied: In 1603, William Shakespeare is named among a list of people in the royal charter creating The King's Men in 1603. Also included in this list are Henry Condell and John Heminges.
In 1616, Condell and Heminges are named in the will of William Shakespeare who dies in Stratford-Upon-Avon.
In 1623, the First Folio is published. Heminges and Condell explain that the Folio is a testament to the memory of the man they'd known.
In Jonson's commendatory poem he refers to Shakespeare as having been "the sweet Swan of Avon".
Mark Haslett wrote: And Jonson was a "double-talker". His chief work, according to his most informed scholars, was secrecy and deception.
SB replied: Jonson was truculent and pugnacious, prone to quarrels rather than inclined to secrecy.
In his commendatory poem in the First Folio, he teases Shakespeare's lack of learning, but praises his art.
In private conversation with William Drummond some years later, Jonson is harsher on Shakespeare (and others).
In De Shakespeare Nostrat, Jonson is again critical towards Shakespeare, but ends by commenting "But he redeemed his vices with his virtues. There was ever more in him to be praised than to be pardoned".
Jonson vacillated in his view of Shakespeare's writing, but never once, in private conversation or posthumous publications, does he ever express any suspicions that he was not the author of the works that bear his name.
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Scott Gray Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 August 2012 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 62
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Posted: 05 May 2025 at 6:05pm | IP Logged | 7
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Mark Haslett wrote: So, no-- he did not grow up in Stratford at the same time as, or "publish" poems attributed to, William Shakespeare.
********************
SG: So is "publish" the wrong word? Is it fair to say that Richard Field at least printed Venus and Adonis, The Rape of Lucrece and The Phoenix and the Turtle, which were all attributed to Shakespeare?
*****************
Mark Haslett wrote: So there is no way to conclusively state William of Stratford was an actor.
*************
SG: I realise that, but it's demonstrably true that there was a Will Shaksper in Stratford and an actor called William Shakespeare in London, correct?
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Michael Penn Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 12 April 2006 Location: United States Posts: 12888
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Posted: 05 May 2025 at 6:18pm | IP Logged | 8
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The person of Richard Field is, understandably, a major field of battle between doubters and non-doubters.
Field and Shaksper were both from Stratford, contemporaries born three years apart, the lived in proximity of each other in a town of 1500-2000 people*, their fathers did know each other at least in terms of legal actions, Will Shaksper was 15 when Field left for London, and Field was a publisher/printer with some documented involvement in Shakespeare's poems.
(*My parents were born pre-WW2 into European villages that size and pretty much everybody knew everybody else.)
Not a smoking gun, no. There's still no evidence about Richard Field that directly demonstrates Shaksper was the author. Nevertheless, Richard Field in the story of Shakespeare is, more than other kinds of circumstantial evidence, better than merely not-inconsistent with Shaksper being the author because Field represents one of the very few documented links between Shakespeare and Stratford.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 134265
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Posted: 05 May 2025 at 6:31pm | IP Logged | 9
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Does he, tho? Or is this part of the branding? Did Field contribute to the transformation of Shaksper into Shakespeare?And in a town where “everyone knew everyone” why did so few people profess knowledge of Stratford Will as the Author, or even AN author?
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Scott Gray Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 August 2012 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 62
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Posted: 05 May 2025 at 6:31pm | IP Logged | 10
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Michael Penn wrote: Will Shaksper was 15 when Field left for London, and Field was a publisher/printer with some documented involvement in Shakespeare's poems.
*****************
SG: So it's entirely possible that Will Shaksper could have known Richard Field and even attended school with him?
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Scott Gray Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 August 2012 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 62
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Posted: 05 May 2025 at 6:34pm | IP Logged | 11
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JB wrote: And in a town where “everyone knew everyone” why did so few people profess knowledge of Stratford Will as the Author, or even AN author?
**************
SG: Wouldn't he have been working in London?
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Mark Haslett Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 19 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 6859
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Posted: 05 May 2025 at 6:34pm | IP Logged | 12
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SG: So is "publish" the wrong word? Is it fair to say that Richard Field at least printed Venus and Adonis, The Rape of Lucrece and The Phoenix and the Turtle, which were all attributed to Shakespeare?
** Yes- total agree.
*************
SG: I realise that, but it's demonstrably true that there was a Will Shaksper in Stratford and an actor called William Shakespeare in London, correct?
** No - I do not see how we can agree that is “demonstrably true.” The only basis for that claim is from a suspicious source reporting years after the acting would have taken place.
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