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Topic: Jim Shooter: The Origin of the Dark Phoenix Saga Post ReplyPost New Topic
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John Byrne
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Grumpy Old Guy

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Posted: 03 June 2011 at 7:08am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

*I actually misspelled this on my first pass, but ironically, could not think of a similar word.

••

How is that ironic?

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Michael Penn
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Posted: 03 June 2011 at 7:18am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Shooter's story sounds like a lot of alibis I heard back when I was practicing criminal law: a mask of surrounding detail but the actions of the people involved not quite believable, particularly since everybody BUT the one explaining what happened acted agitated and unsure. Shooter, the calm voice of reason, but Claremont and Byrne, angry and confused.

Chris stormed into my office and said that there was only one answer--they'd have to kill Phoenix. I said fine.



I don't think he expected me to say that, since killing characters just wasn't done in those days. Chris waffled a bit, but then I became insistent! She's dying. That's it.



Chris left my office, obviously found a phone somewhere and, a few minutes later, I got a call from John that started with him asking me if I was insane.



I don't buy it...
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John Byrne
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Posted: 03 June 2011 at 7:22am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

"Chris left my office, obviously found a phone somewhere and, a few minutes later, I got a call from John that started with him asking me if I was insane.

"

"Found a phone somewhere." In the Marvel Offices. Where there was a phone about every three feet.

THIS is why I don't read what Shooter writes.

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Craig Robinson
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Posted: 03 June 2011 at 7:23am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

I couldn't think of word synonymous with synonymous.  It's ironic in the Alanis Morissette sense.
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Pascal LISE
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Posted: 03 June 2011 at 8:25am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

In fact, the Dark Phœnix was a success thanks to ME.

Because I paid for it and read it.
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Kevin Brown
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Posted: 03 June 2011 at 8:35am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

While I doubt I was the only person to think about it after reading Jean's death, I figured she'd be back relatively soon since her "code name" was Phoenix.

Anyway, JB's version of what happened and how it all went down is the version I've always heard, even from other creators.  Shooter's re-writing of history is a new one to me.  It just strikes me as someone jumping up and down while waving their arms as they scream, "hey look at me!!"

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Robert White
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Posted: 03 June 2011 at 9:11am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Shooter is known for re-writing history. I was recently reading a Gary Groth article that dissected how he fabricated facts about the period when Jack Kirby was trying to get his art back from Marvel. 
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John Byrne
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Posted: 03 June 2011 at 9:42am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

How well I remember Shooter's historical rewrites. Sometimes I was not aware of them until they were pointed out to me.

As one day, many moons ago, when I was walking down a hallway at Marvel, chatting with Mike Hobson about the "Shooter Problem", and felt I had to say at least SOMETHING in the guy's defense. After all, he HAD done SOME things that were good for Marvel. "He got us royalties," I noted.

Mike literally stopped in his tracks. He actually looked hurt for a moment. "Who do you think had to sign off on that?" he asked.

Of course! He was Shooter's boss! Nothing happened without his say-so, however Shooter might like to spin it.

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Michael Penn
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Posted: 03 June 2011 at 10:17am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

The way the cameos of Doctor Strange, Reed and Ben, and the Silver Surfer were written in X-MEN #135 led me at the time to expect they would participate in resolving the problem of the Phoenix, somehow stopping it and freeing/rescuing Jean Grey. 

Reed Richards says he detects a "power that could rival Galactus," something which doesn't happy every day! -- how would he not be driven to investigate that any further? Doctor Strange says he senses "images of great mystic power, great passion, great... evil. But what meaning do they have for Doctor Strange?" -- wasn't that a hint that he would not fail to seek out that meaning? The Silver Surfer also senses "a kindred soul" and then boldly declares "I must aid her if I can" -- wasn't that too a hint that he would be as good as his word? 

However, the Spider-Man cameo on the same page with the others didn't, really couldn't, jibe with others, all characters who faced cosmic entities.

Was this a case of Claremont adding too much to the art, nothing of which suggests that the characters in cameo would have a further part to play in the story? Were these cameos your idea, JB?
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 03 June 2011 at 10:48am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

I recently reread this story, since I've been (slowly!) reading all of the original X-Men stories, from # 1 to # 143.

I must say, despite having read the Dark Phoenix Saga many times before, and having been very familiar with the X-characters and lore for many years, this time it got to me a lot more, emotionally. For the first time, I'd read it completely in context, with the weight on everything that had come before sitting behind it.

Still one of the best superhero stories ever done, IMO. Unfortunately, it's probably done a lot more harm than good, given everything that's happened since.

I also read PHOENIX: THE UNTOLD STORY right after reading the published version. It a fascinating insight into the creative process. While I would like to have seen what would have come after Jean's "psychic lobotomy", the published version takes things to a much higher, much more dramatic level.

It's important to note that the unpublished story features more than the different last few pages. Much of the dialogue is different from the published version.

In the original version, the Shi'ar kidnap the X-Men and say that Phoenix must be destroyed. The X-men challenge them to the moon duel, and then each X-Man has his or her introspective moment, where they examine their fears about dying in the battle and/or their personal loose ends back home. The battle is fought, and the X-Men lose. Then, in what feels almost like a deux ex machina twist, we suddenly get this whole "psychic lobotomy" sequence. Soooo...when the Shi'ar said they wanted Phoenix "destroyed", they didn't mean they would kill Jean, then? Instead, the X-Men essentially are fighting to prevent Jean from being seemingly "cured", lose, then go home. And the destruction of the planet and the Shi'ar ship are given a two-panel flashback, a one-panel reaction from Jean and the others, and is never mentioned again.

It all felt like a cop-out to me.

The published version is much superior, IMO. The rewritten script makes it clear that the X-Men are fighting to save Jean's life, since the Shi'ar apparently intend to execute her in this version, which makes much more sense, and raises the stakes of the story considerably. More importantly, the introspective scenes were rewritten to show each X-Man wrestling with whether or not they even should fight for Jean, given that's she's destroyed an entire planet, and wiped out billions of lives.

And, of course, the revised ending, with Jean's suicide to save the universe, is still incredibly shocking and poignant. Also, the tag with the Watcher and the Recorder originally featured them discussing the nobility of human beings, which is far less interesting or emotional than the final version's "Jean Grey could have lived to become a God. But it was more important to her that she die...a human.".

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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 03 June 2011 at 10:50am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

The way the cameos of Doctor Strange, Reed and Ben, and the Silver Surfer were written in X-MEN #135 led me at the time to expect they would participate in resolving the problem of the Phoenix, somehow stopping it and freeing/rescuing Jean Grey. 

+++++++++

I never got that impression. It's just a sequence were various characters who are equipped to detect the power and danger of Phoenix do just that, but then she's leaves the solar system before any of them can do anything about it.

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John Byrne
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Posted: 03 June 2011 at 11:13am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Still one of the best superhero stories ever done, IMO. Unfortunately, it's probably done a lot more harm than good, given everything that's happened since.

••

I would unashamedly point to the Death of Phoenix as one of the BEST STORIES EVER DONE IN COMICS --- if only Chris had left it alone!!

But, of course, he didn't. Even during the time I was on still on the book, he slipped in every reference he could to Jean/Phoenix, whether it was appropriate or not. (The red panel Wendigo-eye-view of Nightcrawler at the end of the first part of his and Wolverine's Canadian adventure became sunset red in the captions and dialog, so Kurt could be "reminded" of Phoenix!)

It did not take long before the standard joke around the office was that Phoenix was the LEAST dead dead character Marvel had!

===

I also read PHOENIX: THE UNTOLD STORY right after reading the published version. It a fascinating insight into the creative process. While I would like to have seen what would have come after Jean's "psychic lobotomy", the published version takes things to a much higher, much more dramatic level.

••

Unfortunately, that was the one thing Chris was never able to accept: that what we ended up doing, even tho it was very much against our will at the time, was a BETTER STORY than what we'd planned.

===

The battle is fought, and the X-Men lose. Then, in what feels almost like a deux ex machina twist, we suddenly get this whole "psychic lobotomy" sequence. Soooo...when the Shi'ar said they wanted Phoenix "destroyed", they didn't mean they would kill Jean, then? Instead, the X-Men essentially are fighting to prevent Jean from being seemingly "cured", lose, then go home.

••

The "psychic lobotomy" was in no way meant to be a "cure". Jean was going to be reduced to the mental capacity of a 5 year old -- essentially who she was before she had any inkling of her powers. She was then to be turned over to her parents for safekeeping -- until an unfortunate incident (which I'd plotted out already) would trigger the Phoenix deep down inside her, and off we'd go again!

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