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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 05 May 2025 at 12:24pm | IP Logged | 1
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Scott would seem to be asking for a DEFINITE name. Which doesn’t exist. No, not even the name of the man from Stratford.
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Mark Haslett
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6852
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| Posted: 05 May 2025 at 12:24pm | IP Logged | 2
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Scott: I've read this whole thread, and also a previous one on this forum.
Is it really too much to ask for a name?
**
It is one thing to ask for a name, and certainly not “too much“. But it is too
much to say that, without naming a replacement, there is no way to argue
Shakespeare was a pen name.
Innocent people are let out of jail without the real culprit being caught first.
The guy from Stratford cannot be convicted of the crime of writing the
works of Shakespeare. There is enough evidence to exonerate him.
That is true, even if we don’t have enough evidence to convict anyone else.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 05 May 2025 at 12:27pm | IP Logged | 3
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To extend the legal metaphor, the mountain of circumstantial evidence surrounding De Vere—much exceeding what we know of Shaksper—would be enough to generate a conviction in most courts. “Every word doth almost speak my name.”
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Scott Gray
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 August 2012
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 54
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| Posted: 05 May 2025 at 1:46pm | IP Logged | 4
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There's no *actual* evidence for De Vere, though, right?
It's interesting when genuine evidence does present itself - for example, a letter to Anne Hathaway was recently found, giving her address as Trinity Lane, just across the Thames from the Globe Theatre. It was a request to Anne and her husband for financial support (I'd supply the Guardian link but it doesn't seem to be possible on this forum - try googling "Guardian", "Shakespeare", "Stratford" and "letter fragment".)
Shakespeare scholars responded with great interest, because it suggests that Will and Anne's marriage might not have been as unhappy as supposed. It turns out she spent time with him in London!
But how do Shakespeare Doubters react to things like this?
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Michael Penn
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 April 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 12878
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| Posted: 05 May 2025 at 2:13pm | IP Logged | 5
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> There's no *actual* evidence for De Vere, though, right? <
If by "actual" you mean tangible evidence, some physical item or object, or documentary evidence, that demonstrates directly and unambiguously that De Vere was the author of the works of Shakespeare -- right. There is nothing like that.
(Doubters certainly argue there's nothing like that in re Stratford Will as well.)
***
> a letter to Anne Hathaway was recently found ... how do Shakespeare Doubters react... ?<
Doubters and non-doubters should react cautiously. Please note how this was reported in The New York Times:
QUOTE:
| If the letter really was addressed to the Mrs. Shakespeare, rather than a lesser-known person with a similar name, “it is self-evidently remarkable,” Mr. Steggle said. It not only gives some previously unknown Shakespeare contacts, but also offers new clues about their relationship, and even suggests that Mrs. Shakespeare lived for a time in London with her husband.
If Hathaway did live in London, she was possibly back in Stratford by the time she received the letter, likely around 1607 — though not necessarily because her husband wanted independence, according to Mr. Steggle. |
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Scott Gray
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 August 2012
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: 05 May 2025 at 2:22pm | IP Logged | 6
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Here's a bit of text from the Guardian article:
Crucial evidence includes the 1608 book in which the fragment was preserved, Johannes Piscator’s analyses of biblical texts. It was published by Richard Field, a native of Stratford, who was Shakespeare’s neighbour and his first printer. Steggle said that it would be a “strange coincidence” for a piece of paper naming a Shakspaire to be bound, early in its history, next to 400 leaves of paper printed by Field, “given Field’s extensive known links to the Shakespeares”. |
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Scott Gray
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| Posted: 05 May 2025 at 2:25pm | IP Logged | 7
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The letter doesn't paint Shakespeare in a good light - the writer is demanding money Shakespeare had promised to a young orphan named John Butts (More Guardian text follows).
John Butts seems to have been serving an apprenticeship because the letter mentions “when he hath served his time”. Scouring records from the period 1580 to 1650, Steggle found a John Butts, who was an apprentice, fatherless and in the care of his mother. He also unearthed a 1607 reference to a John Butts in the records of Bridewell, an institution whose tasks included the disciplining of unruly apprentices. A document told of “his disobedience to his Mother” and that he was “sett to worke”. Steggle found John Butts in later records, placing him in Norton Folgate, outside the city walls, and living on Holywell Street (Shoreditch High Street today), home to several of Shakespeare’s fellow actors and associates. It was an area in which Shakespeare worked in the 1590s, first at the Theatre in Shoreditch, the principal base for the Lord Chamberlain’s Men throughout those years, and then at its near neighbour, the Curtain theatre. Shakespeare’s lifelong business partners, the Burbages, were involved in innkeeping and victualling nearby. Steggle said: “The adult John Butts, living on the same street as them, working in the hospitality industry in which they were invested … would very much be on the Burbages’ radar. So Shakespeare can be linked to Butts through various Norton Folgate contacts.”
Edited by Scott Gray on 05 May 2025 at 2:26pm
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Mark Haslett
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| Posted: 05 May 2025 at 3:25pm | IP Logged | 8
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As posted earlier, there are no known links between Richard Field and William Shaksper of Stratford. Field left Stratford when Shaksper was a boy. Field's shop was extremely successful and it is no special thing to locate work from his shop at that time. Venus & Adonis was merely one of the runaway best-sellers he printed.
The letter is addressed to “good Mrs Shakspaire,” and found sewn into the binding of a 1,000-page theological book in the city of Hereford, about 50 miles from Stratford-upon-Avon.
The name Shaksper/Shagsper/Shaxper was common in Warwickshire and the number of "Mrs. Shakspaires" populating the 50 square mile radius of Hereford is far too many for this to be taken as a serious piece of authorship evidence.
How much special pleading do we need to use the location of John Butts being at some point near actors, and some printing from a successful London print shop to certify this letter is NOT addressed to a local woman with a common local name, but to a historically important woman located 50 miles away?
Edited by Mark Haslett on 05 May 2025 at 3:28pm
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Mark Haslett
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| Posted: 05 May 2025 at 3:55pm | IP Logged | 9
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Scott: > There's no *actual* evidence for De Vere, though, right? <
**
No. That is incorrect. Here is a tiny bit of the evidence for Oxford:
There are, in fact, song lyrics written by Oxford found in Romeo & Juliet.
-- Act 4 Scene 5, "In Commendation of Music" is by Oxford and put into print by his teacher. It doesn't close any case for authorship on its own, but it's provable writing by Oxford in the play-- While presenting the additional challenge to explain how Oxford’s song ended up in Shaxper’s alleged writing anyway?
We also know Oxford wrote plays which (in description) match Shakespeare’s histories and comedies.
Oxford's troupe of actors mounted the anonymous "History of Agamemnon and Ulysses" for the court as well as "Famous Victories of Henry V" both referenced by Thomas Nashe as no later than 1587. This "Henry V" survives and is filled with parallels from Oxford's juvenilia. This is good evidence that Oxford, who was widely praised for writing plays that no one can locate, wrote these works performed by his troupe.
On the other hand, no one has ever been able to prove Shaksper of Stratford ever wrote anything more than his name on legal documents.
This means, all on its own-- Oxford’s single song in Romeo & Juliet is a greater amount of proven "Shakespeare authorship" than 400 years of searching have located for Stratford Will.
And there is far more. My current hypothesis is that Oxford worked with many writers to create the works of Shakespeare. Records show that he worked with Lyly, Greene, Nashe, Marlowe, Peele, Churchyard, and others.
The only artist of the time who did not leave a record of working for him, or indeed with any of the other writers of the time, is "William Shakespeare"...
- a name which contemporary poets claimed was the pen name of a hidden aristocrat.
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Michael Penn
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| Posted: 05 May 2025 at 3:57pm | IP Logged | 10
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The author of this article (yes, I've read it) notes that in the record there were "only" four possible London couples named Shakespeare (of various spellings) with a wife* to whom this letter was addressed. That is what has survived in the records. Perhaps there were others in London during this relevant time period, i.e., up to 1607, but without appearing in or lost to the records. The author notes the letter could be dated as late as 1630, by which point three of those Shakespeare couples were dead but three more Shakespeare wives would be added. The author does call the appearance of this letter in the Field-published volume a "strange coincidence," but he did publish/print -- again, at least as far as the surviving record shows -- nearly 300 books. We really do not know the exact date of the letter or the addressee, and because it appeared in one among hundreds of books released by Richard Field, still, are these anything more than circumstantial facts requiring what's always been necessary, an offered story that links them together?
*NB: The author admits that for the addressed wife in this letter to have been Anne Hathaway, the traditional/historical opinion that she did not live in London must be revised. He states that all six other Shakespeare wives "are directly recorded in London," albeit only regarding marriage and childbirth. There is no record of Anne in London. The author argues that because the record is extremely thin about the other Shakespeare wives, it is possible that no record of Anne being in London does not mean that she was not in London.
So, again, we see a difference between non-doubters and doubters. Non-doubters are satisfied that something is not impossible, but doubters are not.
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Scott Gray
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 August 2012
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| Posted: 05 May 2025 at 4:38pm | IP Logged | 11
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So... there was definitely an actor called William Shakespeare who worked in London at the Globe Theatre, right?
And there was a man called Will Shaksper who grew up in Stratford?
And Richard Field also grew up in Stratford at the same time?
And Richard Field moved to London and published poems attributed to William Shakespeare?
Is everyone agreed on this much, at least?
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Steven Brake
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| Posted: 05 May 2025 at 5:02pm | IP Logged | 12
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Petter Myhr Ness wrote (in response to my comment about Palladis Tamia naming Shakespeare as the author of a dozen plays): And omitted quite a few plays.
SB: Yep. It's obviously not an exhaustive list, and we don't know why Meres listed the plays that he did.
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