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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 134254
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Posted: 05 May 2025 at 12:24pm | IP Logged | 1
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Scott would seem to be asking for a DEFINITE name. Which doesn’t exist. No, not even the name of the man from Stratford.
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Mark Haslett Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 19 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 6848
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Posted: 05 May 2025 at 12:24pm | IP Logged | 2
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Scott: I've read this whole thread, and also a previous one on this forum.
Is it really too much to ask for a name?
**
It is one thing to ask for a name, and certainly not “too much“. But it is too much to say that, without naming a replacement, there is no way to argue Shakespeare was a pen name.
Innocent people are let out of jail without the real culprit being caught first.
The guy from Stratford cannot be convicted of the crime of writing the works of Shakespeare. There is enough evidence to exonerate him.
That is true, even if we don’t have enough evidence to convict anyone else.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 134254
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Posted: 05 May 2025 at 12:27pm | IP Logged | 3
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To extend the legal metaphor, the mountain of circumstantial evidence surrounding De Vere—much exceeding what we know of Shaksper—would be enough to generate a conviction in most courts. “Every word doth almost speak my name.”
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Scott Gray Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 August 2012 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 53
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Posted: 05 May 2025 at 1:46pm | IP Logged | 4
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There's no *actual* evidence for De Vere, though, right?
It's interesting when genuine evidence does present itself - for example, a letter to Anne Hathaway was recently found, giving her address as Trinity Lane, just across the Thames from the Globe Theatre. It was a request to Anne and her husband for financial support (I'd supply the Guardian link but it doesn't seem to be possible on this forum - try googling "Guardian", "Shakespeare", "Stratford" and "letter fragment".)
Shakespeare scholars responded with great interest, because it suggests that Will and Anne's marriage might not have been as unhappy as supposed. It turns out she spent time with him in London!
But how do Shakespeare Doubters react to things like this?
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Michael Penn Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 12 April 2006 Location: United States Posts: 12877
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Posted: 05 May 2025 at 2:13pm | IP Logged | 5
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> There's no *actual* evidence for De Vere, though, right? <
If by "actual" you mean tangible evidence, some physical item or object, or documentary evidence, that demonstrates directly and unambiguously that De Vere was the author of the works of Shakespeare -- right. There is nothing like that.
(Doubters certainly argue there's nothing like that in re Stratford Will as well.)
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> a letter to Anne Hathaway was recently found ... how do Shakespeare Doubters react... ?<
Doubters and non-doubters should react cautiously. Please note how this was reported in The New York Times:
QUOTE:
If the letter really was addressed to the Mrs. Shakespeare, rather than a lesser-known person with a similar name, “it is self-evidently remarkable,” Mr. Steggle said. It not only gives some previously unknown Shakespeare contacts, but also offers new clues about their relationship, and even suggests that Mrs. Shakespeare lived for a time in London with her husband.
If Hathaway did live in London, she was possibly back in Stratford by the time she received the letter, likely around 1607 — though not necessarily because her husband wanted independence, according to Mr. Steggle. |
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Scott Gray Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 August 2012 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 53
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Posted: 05 May 2025 at 2:22pm | IP Logged | 6
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Here's a bit of text from the Guardian article:
Crucial evidence includes the 1608 book in which the fragment was preserved, Johannes Piscator’s analyses of biblical texts. It was published by Richard Field, a native of Stratford, who was Shakespeare’s neighbour and his first printer. Steggle said that it would be a “strange coincidence” for a piece of paper naming a Shakspaire to be bound, early in its history, next to 400 leaves of paper printed by Field, “given Field’s extensive known links to the Shakespeares”.
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Scott Gray Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 August 2012 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 53
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Posted: 05 May 2025 at 2:25pm | IP Logged | 7
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The letter doesn't paint Shakespeare in a good light - the writer is demanding money Shakespeare had promised to a young orphan named John Butts (More Guardian text follows).
John Butts seems to have been serving an apprenticeship because the letter mentions “when he hath served his time”. Scouring records from the period 1580 to 1650, Steggle found a John Butts, who was an apprentice, fatherless and in the care of his mother. He also unearthed a 1607 reference to a John Butts in the records of Bridewell, an institution whose tasks included the disciplining of unruly apprentices. A document told of “his disobedience to his Mother” and that he was “sett to worke”. Steggle found John Butts in later records, placing him in Norton Folgate, outside the city walls, and living on Holywell Street (Shoreditch High Street today), home to several of Shakespeare’s fellow actors and associates. It was an area in which Shakespeare worked in the 1590s, first at the Theatre in Shoreditch, the principal base for the Lord Chamberlain’s Men throughout those years, and then at its near neighbour, the Curtain theatre. Shakespeare’s lifelong business partners, the Burbages, were involved in innkeeping and victualling nearby. Steggle said: “The adult John Butts, living on the same street as them, working in the hospitality industry in which they were invested … would very much be on the Burbages’ radar. So Shakespeare can be linked to Butts through various Norton Folgate contacts.”
Edited by Scott Gray on 05 May 2025 at 2:26pm
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