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John Byrne
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Posted: 25 July 2006 at 11:35am | IP Logged | 1  

A couple of comments in other threads got me thinking, just now, about when I joined the business, back in the mid 1970s, and how, even tho the system was already showing signs of being weakened by unprofessionalism, most of the old rules were still in place, and largely still enforced.

Under the system wherein I learned my craft, the plot, the first part of the job, was due about six months before the issue was to ship. Pencils were due one month later. The script, one month after that. The letterer got two weeks, and the inker got a month. The colorist got two weeks, too. That meant the whole thing was done in about four months, with two months of "office time" left over. In the first few years I was working, I saw the amount of office time whittled down to about a month, inspiring Marvel to build in some more time (retroactively, rendering a whole bunch of on-time books late, such as Frank Miller's DAREDEVIL).

Even with such shrinkage, tho, books were expected to be finished, at least from the talent's standpoint, at least a month before shipping. And this was how it had been for about forty years, until the influx of fans-turned-pro began to make itself felt in the 1970s, growing worse and worse as we saw more and more of the old Pros yeilding to the process of attrition.

Plenty of excuses are put forth, of course, for why books these days seem almost always to ship late. "We're growing roses" is the most popular, variations in this puffery managing to simultaneously exalt the current talent while insulting those who produced books for decades without missing so much as one single shipping date. Often various writers and artists point to the vastly increased amount of detail in much of the work (tho what is passed off as "detail" is often as not almost blank pages with elaborated coloring.) Question is, tho, is this "better" (subjective!) artwork really making for better comicbooks? Is the product superior to what was produced by those who turned the work in on time? Is a current issue of, say, AMAZING SPIDER-MAN a better comic book than one produced by Lee and Ditko?

We come back, I think, to my old analogy of the Ferrari being used as a pickup truck. We may be able to point to the sleek design and superb engineering of the Ferrari, but in the end it makes a crappy pickup. Is the comicbook industry being well served by those who want to turn pickups into Ferraris, or would it -- and the fans -- be better served if we had more people who simply wanted to make really good pickups?

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Matt Linton
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Posted: 25 July 2006 at 11:43am | IP Logged | 2  

Very good question.  Someone on another thread mentioned that comics seem to be moving away from the monthly serial model, instead focusing on trades/GNs, with the implication being that it won't really matter if Artist X can't meet a deadline because no one will really know by the time they buy the book.  What that misses is the fact that even in publishing graphic novels there will be deadlines, and if the publishers treat them as unrealistically as they do monthly deadlines (scheduling a book as "monthly" when there's no hope that the artist they've hired can handle that) then eventually we'll see late graphic novels, too.
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 25 July 2006 at 11:46am | IP Logged | 3  

Is a current issue of, say, AMAZING SPIDER-MAN a better comic book than one produced by Lee and Ditko?

 

Gee, according to a lot of crazy people on the Internet (and elsewhere), yes.

(shudders)



Edited by Greg Kirkman on 25 July 2006 at 11:46am
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Andrew Bitner
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Posted: 25 July 2006 at 11:48am | IP Logged | 4  

Well, I certainly think so. The "star system" that took off in the 80s has had a mostly-negative effect on the industry, since publishers and editors unwisely surrendered their power to artists (and some writers). The attraction of star power can't save titles-- Jim Lee was arguably as popular as ever when his DIVINE RIGHT series fizzled, and J. Scott Campbell hasn't had a success since the earliest issues of DANGER GIRL (which he gave up even trying to produce early on)-- but publisher and (I suspect, much more importantly) retailers are loathe to give up on "brand names" that they find comfortable and familiar. I don't think I overstate the power of retailers here-- when the commodity is a boutique item, those who order said item have great power over what is on the shelves and available. Can't buy what you don't see, in too many cases.

So many of the industry's problems seem to be intertwined and feeding each other; like a nest of serpents, it's hard to reach in and grab hold of just one. I would love to see more outlets for comic books-- my local CVS drug store doesn't carry any, though Borders and B&N both have spinner racks-- but how do we wean the industry off the stranglehold of the DSM? How do we persuade artists and writers that they are employees and not Hollywood heavyweights in the making?

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Matt Linton
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Posted: 25 July 2006 at 11:58am | IP Logged | 5  

Star power can save some titles, Andrew.  Not saying they required saving, but Jim Lee on Batman and Superman increased sales on those books considerably.  What it can't do in this market is sell books outside of the icons.
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Brandon Pennison
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Posted: 25 July 2006 at 12:02pm | IP Logged | 6  

I think most of us at one time or another are guilty of feeding into the mentality of 'growing roses' with newer books.  Of couse wizard really harps on 'talent' comings and goings more than anyone, so if you read or read wizard you may have been influenced at one time to buy into it. 

The pickup truck/Ferrari comparison is a great metaphor for the state of the industry.  In terms of Ditko as a artist, does he compare to Bryan Hitch or Jim Lee or even JB?  Maybe, but probably not.  But as a story teller with Stan Lee, those issues hold up on their own today.  Marvel Tales was ongoing when I first started reading comics and they were reprinting Spider-man 26 or so when i began collecting.  Those stories were new to me and I loved them, way more than I loved the current issues of any book I was reading.  Even today, the older books hold my attention more because they were and are good stories.

But alas, flash is better than substance.  That is the message we send out everyday as a society, so of course, the flash is going to catch everyone's attention.  It is very easy to get every website to carry a free plug that Spider-man is unmasking because that is 'snazzy' and attention grabbing, but there is little substance left over from such gimmicks.



Edited by Brandon Pennison on 25 July 2006 at 12:05pm
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Michael Kennedy
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Posted: 25 July 2006 at 12:11pm | IP Logged | 7  

John Byrne
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Posted: July 25 2006 at 1:35pm

"Question is, tho, is this "better" (subjective!) artwork really making for better comicbooks? Is the product superior to what was produced by those who turned the work in on time? Is a current issue of, say, AMAZING SPIDER-MAN a better comic book than one produced by Lee and Ditko?"

***
My answer would have to be a resounding 'NO' to all of these questions. What's really weird, to me, is that these 'late books' often feel rushed to me. I have this feeling that the artist/writer got the assignment, took a 3 week vacation, came back the week it was due, and 'crammed' a month's work of work into a few days, like one might cram for a test.

***
John Byrne Continued:

"
Is the comicbook industry being well served by those who want to turn pickups into Ferraris, or would it -- and the fans -- be better served if we had more people who simply wanted to make really good pickups?"

***
The Ferrari is nice, and you enjoy it when you have it. If you need to haul a lot of stuff, though, you need the pick-up. I think the comic-industry needs more of the pick-ups, and less of the Ferraris.

Unfortunately, I think the pick-ups' days are numbered. Or so it would seem.

Too sad.
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Daniel Kendrick
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Posted: 25 July 2006 at 12:15pm | IP Logged | 8  

Campbell has been "doing" Wildsiderz for Wildstorm. His third issue was supposed to come out last year and has yet to hit the shelves (or even be rescheduled). Everytime I see him do a cover, pin-up or sketchbook I think "another page he could've finished on a series he already started..."

I honestly feel sorry for the Spider-Man fans when he starts doing it.
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Jeff Lommel
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Posted: 25 July 2006 at 12:35pm | IP Logged | 9  

I'd venture to say that the advent of the fax machine and later, computers, has done very little to curb that mentality you speak of, JB.  "I can get this script to them the day it's due, and can work on it right up until then"  "whoops, I'm not done!", etc.

Regarding your comment on growing roses, I can only sigh and quote Quesada at last weekends panel:
  • Asked about the lateness of Ultimates v2, Quesada joked that he's just going to fire Millar and Hitch; then familiarly adding that when you look at Hitch's art, you can see why it takes as along as it dos, and said that he knows the level of creativity takes a lot out of Mark Millar, so it will "hit when it hits."  
Until this sort of mentality at the highest level changes, what hope is there for the artists/writers to be more professional??
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Michael Kennedy
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Posted: 25 July 2006 at 12:42pm | IP Logged | 10  

None, Mr. Lommel.

TOMORROW

Comic Con 2016

  • Asked about the lateness of ULTIMATES v2, the latest in a long line of EICs joked: It will get here when it gets here! Purdy art takes a long time.

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Robert Last
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Posted: 25 July 2006 at 12:44pm | IP Logged | 11  


I don't have a problem with a book coming out 10 times a year, or eight times a year, or whatever, as long as it sticks to that.  I even don't mind the "Volume" system of books that Young Avengers and Runaways have used, where the creative team takes 4 months off or whatever.

I do agree with Daniel however, in that it drives me insane when I see a "professional" doing pin-ups and variant covers when their own book is woefully late.

I don't know what the big two think, but I promise you it DOES erode sales.  Only a very, very small number of books can get away with it (notably the Ultimates) without losing too many sales.  I dread to think what the delays in Iron Man did to the sales of that book overall, and amongst other things, the delays on All Star Batman and Robin mean I'm reducing my orders every issue.

Surely the business heads can see some way of keeping the "star power" sales with the old guard professionalism?
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Steve Horton
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Posted: 25 July 2006 at 12:46pm | IP Logged | 12  

I believe Scott McCloud made a point very early on in UNDERSTANDING COMICS that it was the less photorealistic art that hits a nerve with readers, as they are better able to "fill in the blanks" themselves.

I tend to like the Neal Adams style photorealism, but I also like the more expressionistic art quite a bit. One of my favorite comic books, BOX OFFICE POISON, was drawn in a very cartoony style, and yet it struck a nerve like no other.

If we had to say goodbye to today's trend of artists who should really be working on storyboards or in advertising in exchange for getting the books out on time - I'm all for it.

Some of you are probably sick to death of the manga analogies, but even the best of them still work in a fairly expressionistic style, especially in figurework. They save the elaborate detail for technology and backgrounds.
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