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Topic: Jim Shooter: The Origin of the Dark Phoenix Saga Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Michael Todd
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Posted: 08 June 2011 at 3:52pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

I really don't think that there is any hope left for getting the X-Men back on track any longer, too much time has passed and to the folks running things now "our X-Men" was just some historic footnote.
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Wallace Sellars
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Posted: 08 June 2011 at 3:59pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

The only person I can think of currently working at Marvel who could get me
to pick up the X-MEN again is Alan Davis... and that's only if he were
drawing and writing about the original teen team or second team, the book
existed in a universe other than the one all of the other company titles
inhabited, and he had a contract that prohibited interference (and
suggestions) from the landlords.
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Thanos Kollias
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Posted: 08 June 2011 at 4:05pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Considering to me the Beast was an X-Man that sentence just seems wrong.
+++
I agree, but the furry version does belong to the Avengers, right?
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Larry Morris
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Posted: 08 June 2011 at 4:27pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

Mark, it's not a failure saleswise, but, not too long, ago, I think I saw Uncanny selling in the 60s, maybe low 70s.  About tenth in the top sellers.  It's not bad.  Still, enough that it might spur back to basics if that was the inclination.

I thought that was what things like Heroic Age were about.  Thing is, I'm not willing to overlook all the lines these characters have been allowed to cross to create a story or event.  I know that's how I feel about X Men.  What they would have to do to get me back they're not going to do. 

In some ways I suppose I sympathize with them. 
Big name creators, events, rattling the cage, are what seem to spur sales. Okay, maybe only shorterm.  The options are a more classic approach.  Does that sell?  Sales just continue to drop. 

Maybe it's helped them survive for now.  It's just not my cup of tea.  The integrity of the characters is too important to me.   
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Andrew W. Farago
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Posted: 08 June 2011 at 4:31pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Is the Kulan Gath story the launching point for all the alternate reality stories that we get in Marvel and DC?  Days of Future Past was a look into the then-actual future, so it's not quite an alternate reality, but the Kulan Gath story has all of the same things that you find in Age of Apocalypse, House of M, Flashpoint, etc.  The universe has completely changed, everyone's got new costumes, there's some magic thing or other that altered all of reality...
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Michael Todd
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Posted: 08 June 2011 at 5:20pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

I kind of liked it better when the upper limits of the X-Men's powers were still a mystery.

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Michael Todd
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Posted: 08 June 2011 at 9:26pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

By the way I found this in an old comic book, who knew that Professor X once moonlighted as a Marvel huckster?

 

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Keith Thomas
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Posted: 08 June 2011 at 11:21pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

By the time I left, X-Men had become a baby juggernaut, and it went on to grow to full maturity in the years that followed.

While Dave was drawing the book, as most of you know, sales kept inching up, but he could not handle a monthly grind, and Archie Goodwin, then EiC, knew the book needed to go monthly to turn the corner and get the sales engine really chugging along. That was where I came in, along with Terry Austin.

Sales did not explode with our arrival, but they kept climbing steadily, in small increments, and that continued after I left. The real supernova effect kicked in when Paul Smith arrived -- tho, in all honesty, that might have been just a coincidence. Full credit to Smitty, where credit is due, but this was also the same time the speculators started "noticing" the X-MEN.

 

I kind of got lucky in a way in that when I started reading all the Byrne back issues were too expensive for me to buy so I never read them until  years later and all I had to compare the current issues (@230) to were the back issues I could afford (@150-200) so the current stuff to me seemed really awesome by comparison. I think by then it was even going bi-weekly for short periods.

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Tim O Neill
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Posted: 09 June 2011 at 12:13am | IP Logged | 9 post reply



Based on reading my brother's Cockrum and JB issues, the first Uncanny X-Men I bought was #136.  So I very much remember the excitement of reading those "Dark Phoenix" issues when they came out, even though I arrived towards the end.  For me, I wasn't connected to fanzines or conventions - I didn't know it was an event or unusual for a character to die.  It was just the best comic being published at the time, far and away.  And with "Days of Future Past" soon after, you just had to be reading that book if you were reading comics.  Do people realize how close together in time those two stories were published?

I think "Dark Phoenix" and "Days of Future Past" very much contributed to the success of X-Men even after JB left.  The JB back issues were painfully hard to find and expensive when you did, which added to the mystique. 

I think that scarcity contributed to the initial success of the trade paperback.  It wasn't "wait for the trade" in those days - the trade provided something you just could not get.  But I think the trade has stayed a staple on a lot of bookshelves because of the power of #136 and #137.  Those two issues are on fire.



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James Woodcock
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Posted: 09 June 2011 at 2:01am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

It was definitly the 'Death of Phoenix' that cemented the X-Men in my mind. I had been loving and reading the reprints in Rampage and it had been my favourite comic for a number of years at that point. However, once Rampage had got to Dark Phoenix, that was it, I decided to start buying the American versions.

This led to a fun period of hunt the issues down (At that point the issue on the stands was Kitty's fairy tale - 153) and I managed to get all the issues between 137 and 153 over a period of a few months. This was helped by what appeared to be a glut of back issues coming on to the newstands for some unknown reason. A poxy little, local newsagent chain seemed to have bought a load of Marvel back issues and was stocking them. I spent a few days going around every store buyinig up whole swathes of Marvel comics. Got the originals for Dark Phoenix, Days of Future Past part 1 (Had to get 142 and 142 through mail order) and a lot of Cockrum's second run up to 153.

Ah, those were good days.

edit to add - all those issues were at cover price - 35p for issue 137 16 months after it was published.



Edited by James Woodcock on 09 June 2011 at 2:04am
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Matt Hawes
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Posted: 26 June 2011 at 5:41pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

I know that people have a natural inclination to be biased toward themselves in talking about past situations, but Jim Shooter does seem to play it like he was an innocent victim of other people's hurt egos, and how he only wanted the best for everyone else. Here are a few select quotes from his latest blog entry, which also mentions JB:

 Jim Shooter wrote:


...

"...Other than a few over-the-top examples, notably the Doug Moench interview in which he accused me of being responsible for Gene Day's death, as far as I can tell, these are generally the crimes alleged:

     1)  I gave the creator in question direction. That is, I told him or her what to do, or refused to allow something he or she wanted to do.

     2)  I wasn't warm and fuzzy enough. I didn't sugar coat things enough. I was "mean."

Well, it was my job to run Marvel's comics publishing operation. I was making decisions that were mine to make. I was giving direction that I was empowered to give. I was the boss. What part of the word "boss" was mysterious to them, I don't know..."


"...Once, in court, in my presence, John Byrne testified on the stand that he had made over ten million dollars working at Marvel. Guess I screwed him good...."

"...I refused to have double standards. No situations like: Artist "A" must redraw the inappropriate scene, but superstar artist "B" is allowed to get away with a similar misrepresentation of a character. It was my job to protect those characters, protect those franchises. The characters and the books came before any superstar and his or her ego..."

"...
The truth is I allowed a great deal of creative freedom. Some took advantage of that and did great work. Others just tried to take advantage..."


Edited by Matt Hawes on 26 June 2011 at 5:42pm
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John Byrne
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Posted: 26 June 2011 at 6:03pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

"...Once, in court, in my presence, John Byrne testified on the stand that he had made over ten million dollars working at Marvel. Guess I screwed him good...."

•••

I'll have to send Shooter a note asking him to forward to me the checks he must have withheld, then, since that figure in no way tallies with my bank account. Does he owe me interest, do you think?

(Anyone who wants to test Shooter's math can do so fairly easily. The Statement of Ownership in the books was usually accurate. The royalty payments were 4% of the cover price, divided among the creative team as 1.5% to the writer, 1.5% to the penciler, and 1% to the inker. An additional 1% was paid to the creators of books, such as on ALPHA FLIGHT. This was paid only after the first 100,000 units sold, so a book that sold, say, 150,000 would pay royalties on 50,000. Royalties started to kick in some time in 1983, as I recall. So, figure out which issues I worked on during the time Shooter was EiC after the royalties arrived, calculate the payments based on the sales, cover price, and jobs I did, and see how close you come to $10,000,000.)

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