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Dave Kopperman
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Posted: 10 January 2022 at 3:52pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

The right to assembly, like the right to bear arms, and the right to free speech, were/are clearly intended to be exercised with sound judgement.  All of these rights are limited by their own versions of the logical and moral guideline that you don't shout "FIRE!" in a crowded theater.

The trick is to not interpret them as commandments. It's not "thou shalt bear arms."  It's "you're allowed to bear arms (responsibly)."  I'm no longer convinced that those on the far-to-not-so-far right know the difference.
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James Woodcock
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Posted: 11 January 2022 at 12:37am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

A single person cannot assemble.
If the assembly they are in turns wild, that person did not peacefully
assemble. They were part of an unpeaceful assembly.

The assembly is the important part here I think
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Tim O Neill
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Posted: 11 January 2022 at 10:02am | IP Logged | 3 post reply


It's not just the violence - it's that they were protesting a free and fair election.
Even the most benign attendees wanted the votes of people of color thrown
out. Getting behind this kind of misinformation is the first step on the road to
insurrection. The fact that you had Proud Boys heading over to the Capitol
before Trump's speech was even done shows that we have active militias that
have grown out of our racial divide and misinformation problem.

The strongest thread between the Capitol and the BLM protests is the Proud
Boys - in each case, they were boots on the ground instigating violence
against fellow Americans. These militias are absolute poison to our
democracy, and if you have Fox cheering on voter fraud, it pours gasoline on
their fire.








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James Woodcock
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Posted: 11 January 2022 at 12:43pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

You have to ask yourself, based on what is now known, why
outlets/presenters such as Fox, which actually do not think the vote was
stollen, & do think the riot was wrong, continue to present the opposite
views.

What is driving such insane actions?
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John Wickett
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Posted: 11 January 2022 at 12:56pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

"Those "cosplayers" invaded the US Capitol in a Presidentially-sanctioned attempt to use violence to subvert a free and fair election.  If you can't see how that is a FAR more serious threat to America than urban rioting and unfocused property destruction, then you're being willfully obtuse."

I think you are half right.  To call what happened on January 6 a riot simply does not describe what happened. For those who stormed the capitol, it was a deliberate attempt to overturn the results of the election, so it can only fairly be described as an insurrection.  As such, it was a direct attack on our democratic institutions.  There is no comparison between that and the riots that sprang from the protests Joe is referring to.

But I disagree with the notion that the events of Jan 6 posed a major threat to the country, because the insurrection had NO CHANCE of being successful.  The insurrectionists never stood a chance at getting the election results overturned.  Mike Pence and the legislators who were there to certify the results were safely evacuated.  They never even came into direct contact with an insurrectionist.  And the actions of those involved were rightly condemned by the vast majority of Americans on both sides of the political spectrum.  Now they are being appropriately charged and prosecuted for their actions.

If there was ever a real threat to democracy, it came from Trump and his surrogates promoting claims that the election was stolen after it was shown there was no evidence of widespread fraud.  

"It's not just the violence - it's that they were protesting a free and fair election.  Even the most benign attendees wanted the votes of people of color thrown out."

I think you're going to far by suggesting that protestors were motivated to suppress minority votes.  

I agree it was a free and fair election that Biden won.  But the people who showed up to protest didn't see it that way.  Many were deceived by the president and the media.  They were there to protest perceived widespread fraud, including dead people voting, people casting ballots that did not belong to them, vote counting machines being manipulated, etc.  

As I recall, there was a long running story on Fox News that suggested in one polling place the election workers claimed a water pipe had broken, and that the site was being closed for the evening, but after the media left, they pulled out boxes with thousands of ballots pre-marked for Biden, and used them to sway the results in their precinct.  They even showed footage they claimed was of workers retrieving the unmarked boxes from under tables.

Another story claimed the number of Biden votes received exceeded the total number of registered voters.  

People who believed these stories came out to protest what they perceived to be fraudulent election results.  If you want to argue they were fools for being taken in by Trump, his surrogates, the media, etc., that is more than fair.  But to claim they were all there to intentionally suppress minority voters seems unjustified.
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David Miller
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Posted: 11 January 2022 at 1:10pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

 John Wickett wrote:
As I recall, there was a long running story on Fox News that suggested in one polling place the election workers claimed a water pipe had broken, and that the site was being closed for the evening, but after the media left, they pulled out boxes with thousands of ballots pre-marked for Biden, and used them to sway the results in their precinct. They even showed footage they claimed was of workers retrieving the unmarked boxes from under tables.

Another story claimed the number of Biden votes received exceeded the total number of registered voters.


Those stories -- the idea they even rose to allegations was laughable -- are nonsensical and in no way justify thinking the entire election was uniformly flawed and illegitimate, let alone excuse violence.

If those insurrectionists marching under the Confederate aren't motivated by racism, and the right wing's best ideas for "reform" consistently disenfranchises Black voters, it sure amounts to a hell of a coincidence, over and over again.

These people may be idiots, but they aren't naive. They're assholes. And traitors.
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John Wickett
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Posted: 11 January 2022 at 1:19pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

"If those insurrectionists marching under the Confederate aren't motivated by racism...it sure amounts to a hell of a coincidence, over and over again."

Agreed.  That's not who I was talking about.  Tim said "even the most benign attendees wanted the votes of people of color thrown out." 

 
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Peter Martin
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Posted: 11 January 2022 at 4:02pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply


 QUOTE:
But I disagree with the notion that the events of Jan 6 posed a major threat to the country, because the insurrection had NO CHANCE of being successful.  The insurrectionists never stood a chance at getting the election results overturned.  Mike Pence and the legislators who were there to certify the results were safely evacuated.

I think it's debatable. I've compared Trump before to a stress test of a piping system. He somehow finds the weakest spot.

After an election day result is called, there are a sequence of events that occur leading up to the inauguration. Previously these were seen as mere formalities. With Trump, each became a hurdle that came under a challenge. The insurrection certainly provided a major disruption to one of the last of these events, which was the counting of the electoral votes. Had it been significantly delayed, who knows what leverage that might have given to Trump and his team in terms of launching some new litigation against the dotting of the Ts of the process. Several congresspeople have admitted their votes cast that day for objections were influenced by fear of the mob. That is insanely serious.

Finally, what is not debatable is the danger that Pence and the rest were in. But for the brave actions of Capitol security, who knows what might have happened.
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David Miller
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Posted: 11 January 2022 at 4:03pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

There's no moral or ethical distinction between people who explicitly seek to throw out the votes of people of color because they are people of color, and their allies who insist over and over they just don't give a shit about people of color (which is its own racism.) Marching next to a guy waving the Confederate flag is the same as marching under it.
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John Wickett
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Posted: 11 January 2022 at 4:31pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

"Had it been significantly delayed, who knows what leverage that might have given to Trump and his team in terms of launching some new litigation against the dotting of the Ts of the process."

Peter, I think that's a fair point.  There are many things that could have happened that would have made the insurrection a significant threat.  

But we have the benefit of looking at this with hindsight, and none of those things that could have happened actually did happen.  Pence and the legislators were unharmed, and the certification of the vote was only slightly delayed.  

At the end of the day what we have is an extremely ugly and tragic incident that failed to de-rail the system, and the people responsible are being held accountable.

"Marching next to a guy waving the Confederate flag is the same as marching under it."

When you go to a protest you don't have control over who shows up.  During BLM protest, I wouldn't hold the entire group accountable for the small number who are shouting "pigs in a blanket; fry like bacon," or who are looting stores.  Likewise, I would not hold everyone at an election protest accountable for the minority who showed up carrying confederate flags.
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David Miller
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Posted: 11 January 2022 at 5:28pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

Here's a list of Republicans who voted to overturn the election and overthrow the Constitution on 1.6.

Here's a list of Republicans who voted to keep Confederate statues on display at the Capitol.

The two lists have a whole lotta names in common. Racism and insurrectionism are hardly "minority" traits among Republican.
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Dave Kopperman
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Posted: 11 January 2022 at 7:49pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

 John Wickett wrote:
...and the people responsible are being held accountable.

Are they?  Which people?  And by whom?  The Republican base doesn't think anything actually happened* on January 6th, the GOP is excommunicating those who try to work with the Democrats to fight it, and the thin gray wall of honorable GOP Attorneys General and the like who pushed back on pressure from Trump to overturn the election at a state level are being systematically erased.

Are you a Republican voter, John?  Are you an independent?  If so, are you going to vote for Democratic candidates for Local, State, and Federal office in the next election if the Republican candidates are part of the very large group of their party who either did nothing or vocally offered support?  The only way it's going to change is if the GOP sees that supporting Trump in his aims to subvert democracy proves unpopular with voters.

*Or whichever narrative they choose to believe that isn't the truth.


Edited by Dave Kopperman on 11 January 2022 at 8:08pm
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