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Jabari Lamar
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Posted: 27 June 2022 at 10:52pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Funny thing about that congresswoman saying "White life." As I saw someone note, even if we take her at her word that she "misspoke", what does that say about the people in the audience who clapped afterward? 
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John Wickett
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Posted: 28 June 2022 at 12:39am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

"Well, the Supreme Taliban of the US has handed down another religiously-biased decision, this one significantly undoing the separation between church and state."

Separation of church and state doesn't mean government and religion can't co-exist in the same space.  Every session of Congress is opened with a prayer.

The Establishment Clause provides that "Congress shall pass no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

Its a pretty big stretch to interpret that as meaning a high school coach can't publicly say a prayer at the end of a football game.

In my opinion the school district would have a strong case if players who were participating in the prayers felt compelled to do so.  But that wasn't the situation here.  After being warned in 2015, the coach stopped praying with players, and stopped having any religious discussions with them whatsoever..    

The coach was disciplined for praying aloud in public, by himself, after he declined an offer by the school to provide him with a private space.

Keep in mind, these prayers were not being offered in his capacity as a school district official.  They weren't opening or closing prayers that were part of the program, being offered at a podium on a microphone  (like the prayers in Congress).  The games were over.    

So I think the court made the right call on this one.  If you disagree that's fine, but I don't see how this "significantly undoes the separation of church and state."  That's a little over the top.
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John Wickett
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Posted: 28 June 2022 at 12:39am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

"Funny thing about that congresswoman saying "White life." As I saw someone note, even if we take her at her word that she "misspoke", what does that say about the people in the audience who clapped afterward?"

Great point.   
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Dave Kopperman
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Posted: 28 June 2022 at 1:03am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

Been in sort of a fog for the last few days - kind of mentally withdrew when the news dropped and just stayed that way. Would probably be a bit less mopey about it if:
  1. It hadn't happened in the middle of such a relentless onslaught of lousy news,
  2. There was a clear and definitive end point to what may come out of this Court
  3. There was any sign of genuine hope in the short term, and more than a dim "well, it's got to get better at SOME point" monkey chattering in my brain
Feh.
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Paul Kimball
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Posted: 28 June 2022 at 2:27am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

just my opinion but I would think a coach praying while still at the game while
his players are still there would be a little coercive for players to join in. I
mean, he's doing it in full view of everyone, at the 50yard line, while still (I
assume?) wearing his school colors, at the game when fans are still there.

If a class let out at 3pm but at 3:01 the teacher moved to the center of the
room and started talking about transgender rights, I would think the idea of
"it's their free speech" wouldn't hold up

my two cents.
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John Wickett
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Posted: 28 June 2022 at 6:13am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

Paul, I would see this the same way you do, if students were participating.  In 2015 that was happening, and the school district rightly called the coach out for it, because they didn't want any students to feel pressured to join.

After being warned by the district, the coach stopped encouraging or allowing students to pray with him, and stopped having any religious discussions with them.

Several months later he was disciplined for continuing to pray on his own.

As I see it, leading students in prayer = establishing a state sponsored religion, which is problematic, even though its not a direct violation of the establishment clause, as a coach praying at a ballgame does not involve Congress passing a law. 

Conversely, praying alone after an activity has ended (even in public view) is a private exercise of religion that is protected by the establishment clause.
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Jason Czeskleba
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Posted: 28 June 2022 at 6:57am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

 John Wickett wrote:
In my opinion the school district would have a strong case if players who were participating in the prayers felt compelled to do so.
According to the principal of Bremerton High School, at least one parent did complain that his son felt compelled to join in the prayers (despite being an atheist) because he was worried he would otherwise lose playing time.  It stands to reason there were probably others, though only the one case is reported. 

Regardless, even if there's a reasonable possibility that a student might feel coerced, that should be sufficient for the school district to act.  I mean, would it be okay for example for a coach to tell racist jokes to his players as long as no one is bothered by those jokes?  


 QUOTE:
After being warned in 2015, the coach stopped praying with players, and stopped having any religious discussions with them whatsoever..  
Not so.  He was warned in mid-September 2015 and he stopped for a month.  But in October 2015, he sent the district a letter saying he intended to resume praying at the 50-yard line immediately after the game, and that students would be welcome to join him.  On October 16, 2015, he led a post-game prayer at the 50 yard line and was joined by players from both teams as well as supporters and some local politicians who wanted to join the spectacle.  He repeated this on October 23 and 26th.  After that he was placed on paid administrative leave, and his contract was not renewed at season's end.


 QUOTE:
Keep in mind, these prayers were not being offered in his capacity as a school district official.  They weren't opening or closing prayers that were part of the program, being offered at a podium on a microphone  (like the prayers in Congress).  The games were over.
In the opinion of his employer, he was still on duty at the time he was leading these prayers.  Per the letter sent to Kennedy by the school district: the prayers occurred "when students are still on the football field, in uniform, under the stadium lights, with the audience still in attendance, and while Mr. Kennedy is still in his District-issued and District-logoed attire. Critically, at that time, Mr. Kennedy remains on duty."

Besides being offered a private place to conduct his prayers, he was also offered the option to pray at the 50-yard line after students and spectators had left so that it (in the words of the school district) "did not interfere with his job duties or suggest the District’s endorsement of religion."  He refused this accommodation.  He wanted to pray in his coaching uniform, in front of the crowd, while acting in his capacity as a school employee.

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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 28 June 2022 at 6:59am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Jesus (paraphrased): Don’t be a douchenozzle and make a public spectacle while praying. Do that shit behind closed doors. 

–Matthew 6:5-6

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Michael Penn
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Posted: 28 June 2022 at 12:12pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

>> The District initiated an inquiry into whether its policy on Religious-Related Activities and Practices had been violated. It learned that, since his hiring in 2008, Kennedy had been kneeling on the 50-yard line to pray immediately after shaking hands with the opposing team. Kennedy recounted that he initially prayed alone and that he never asked any student to join him.  Over time, however, a majority of the team came to join him, with the numbers varying from game to game. Kennedy’s practice evolved into postgame talks in which Kennedy would hold aloft student helmets and deliver speeches with “overtly religious references,” which Kennedy described as prayers, while the players kneeled around him. The District also learned that students had prayed in the past in the locker room prior to games, before Kennedy was hired, but that Kennedy subsequently began leading those prayers too. <<



Edited by Michael Penn on 28 June 2022 at 12:17pm
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John Byrne
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Posted: 28 June 2022 at 12:47pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Must be offensive to the other team, this assumption that God is NOT on their side.
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Michael Penn
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Posted: 28 June 2022 at 1:04pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

The opposing team and coaches were invited to pray too, and many often did. Jesus loves everybody!
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John Byrne
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Posted: 28 June 2022 at 1:20pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

I’m flashing back to a Jack Jones recording that played on the radio a lot in the late Seventies, when I still had background noise while I worked. Jesus loves the little children and all that.

Included the disturbing advice not to worry about “the color of his hair, or the length of his skin”.

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