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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132279
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| Posted: 13 January 2023 at 5:07pm | IP Logged | 1
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Deep background: the changes to Northstar and Aurora’s history came about largely because of some folk at Marvel getting a bit squeamish about Jean-Paul being Gay. Altho I had been forbidden to state his sexual preference explicitly, I did manage to get the word out. Gay fans rejoiced. But a sea change had to come. Those were less enlightening times. So it was “revealed” that the Beaubiers were actually supernatural creatures. Yes, Northstar wasn’t Gay, he was a fairy. Seriously. I could not make this stuff up.
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Peter Martin
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 March 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 15794
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| Posted: 13 January 2023 at 5:11pm | IP Logged | 2
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The twins being elf things is as stupid as it gets. Fortunately I was not a reader by that point and have only heard about it.
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Greg McPhee
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 August 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 5065
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| Posted: 13 January 2023 at 5:24pm | IP Logged | 3
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Deep background: the changes to Northstar and Aurora’s history came about largely because of some folk at Marvel getting a bit squeamish about Jean-Paul being Gay.
=======================================================
I do remember reading that Mantlo did plan to have Northstar die of AIDS and that was the ongoing subplot with Jean-Paul being ill of an "unspecified" disease. Word of this got to Shooter (and pun intended) he shot it down. We then get left with the fairy mess (and, yeah, you couldn't make it up.
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Greg McPhee
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 August 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 5065
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| Posted: 13 January 2023 at 5:32pm | IP Logged | 4
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I have to say the one that had the biggest hurdles to overcome after Mantlo was James Hudnall, and the book he inherited.
Hudnall's run was uneven and he was partnered with a novice and untried artist for his run, but he at least tried to get things back to the way they were.
From interviews Hudnall was probably over ambitious with his overall plans for the book. I can't fault him for repairing a lot of the characters Mantlo had damaged and trying to do something spectacular with his Sorcerer storyline and a long ranging goal in a book that had really lost direction.
Unfortunately, the overall execution was average despite the germ of some good ideas. I would say it was an improvement over Mantlo.
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Craig Earl
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 13 July 2019
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1249
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| Posted: 13 January 2023 at 7:36pm | IP Logged | 5
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Remembering his Hulk and Peter Parker runs, it always seemed to me that Mantlo was writing for a younger audience. There was the odd entertaining issue, but I never really expected or got much depth.
Whoever replaced JB on AF may well have been scrutinized to the Nth degree anyway, but Mantlo was possibly the worst choice IMO.
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Rebecca Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 February 2018
Location: Canada
Posts: 4520
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| Posted: 13 January 2023 at 7:54pm | IP Logged | 6
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I can't point to any of the later Alpha Flight comics that weren't a mess in some way. It might've even been best if they'd stayed retired/supporting characters? I tried a bunch of the issues before 100 and a few after it as well as a Broderick drawn special and a flashback with origin stuff, and a couple issues of the late '90s revival... all pretty forgettable despite bringing back Northstar and Guardian(s) (they brought in an earlier timeline Guardian/Mac for some reason and there were two Sasquatches). I remember an Avengers cross-over with Russian superheroes in a longish storyline more fondly than anything in their own comics post-Byrne.
I'd pretty much have stuck with the group from Uncanny X-Men #120-121 with no additions (no offense), they were all really strong... I didn't see an addition I liked, pretty much the same with The X-Men themselves after adding Kitty... Rogue, Forge, Psylocke, Gambit... Phoenix II/Jr. seemed to maybe have a bit of promise initially and then fizzled out. So AF with Snowbird and the twins in matching outfits era is the iconic and most memorable one for me. Did they think of getting a Canadian writer (or maybe had one post Byrne I didn't notice as such)? How about T.M. Maple the lettercol regular? Ken Steacy? I'd have liked their comic to feature different real locales more in-line with their debut set in Calgary, I found that very appealing when a comic would have a real setting, but of course especially a Canadian one... and it could've been a sweet gig for a writer/artist to travel for research as well as promotion.
Over one hundred issues is an accomplishment, but Excalibur did the same.
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Andrew Bitner
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 June 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 7482
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| Posted: 13 January 2023 at 9:26pm | IP Logged | 7
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I probably could have done without AF characters being shanghaied into an IMMORTAL HULK story where they really didn't belong but... oh well.
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Vinny Valenti
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 8030
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| Posted: 13 January 2023 at 11:28pm | IP Logged | 8
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"Taking Madison Jeffries from being a shy version of Ben Grimm to being the backbone of the team?!"
--
It's not for nothing that JB created Jeffries as "not-easy-on-the-eyes", and a loner to boot - because his power alone was great enough to overshadow the rest of the team. So his reluctance to join a team or even use his powers to their full potential was the counter-balance to that:
Subsequent artists did maintain his not-so-good looks ... but up-and-coming Jim Lee couldn't help but make him a cookie-cutter handsome man, and giving him full control over Box basically turned him into a Transformer.
Edited by Vinny Valenti on 13 January 2023 at 11:33pm
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Greg McPhee
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 August 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 5065
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| Posted: 13 January 2023 at 11:54pm | IP Logged | 9
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Subsequent artists did maintain his not-so-good looks ... but up-and-coming Jim Lee couldn't help but make him a cookie-cutter handsome man, and giving him full control over Box basically turned him into a Transformer.
=======================================================
Mantlo really did use him as deus ex machina to solve every problem / villain AF encountered after issue 50. I do remember Hudnall, Nicieza and Lobdell (Yes. I stuck with the book) played down his role in their runs, and Simon Furman wrote him out the series altogether after issue 110.
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Greg McPhee
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 August 2004
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| Posted: 13 January 2023 at 11:57pm | IP Logged | 10
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Whoever replaced JB on AF may well have been scrutinized to the Nth degree anyway, but Mantlo was possibly the worst choice IMO.
======================================================
Given their work on team books, and being able to establish character relationships and understand what had come before them Roger Stern and David Michelinie might have been better fits than Mantlo.
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Tim O Neill
Byrne Robotics Security
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 10926
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| Posted: 14 January 2023 at 1:12am | IP Logged | 11
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Peter: "Does the illusion of change apply that well to AF though? Mac dying
was not supposed to be an illusion. The post-Byrne issues treated it as such,
but it was clearly meant to be a hard change..."
***
This is a good point, Peter - and I have been thinking about it since you
posted. I think Mac's death was real and it was consequential. It felt truly tragic
and marked a change in the team's leadership and dynamic, and the change
evoked how the team could be fluid. Change with consequences was what
made ALPHA FLIGHT great.
But from what I have seen of the post JB stories, death was the takeaway, not
consequences nor verisimilitude.
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Tim O Neill
Byrne Robotics Security
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 10926
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| Posted: 14 January 2023 at 1:18am | IP Logged | 12
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Craig: "Remembering his Hulk and Peter Parker runs, it always seemed to me
that Mantlo was writing for a younger audience. There was the odd
entertaining issue, but I never really expected or got much depth.
Whoever replaced JB on AF may well have been scrutinized to the Nth degree
anyway, but Mantlo was possibly the worst choice IMO."
***
I was just reading PETER PARKER: THE SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN
"Essential" Volume 1 edition over the holiday break - I have fond memories of
the whole Carrion storyline from when I was young. I have to say that Mantlo's
writing on the book does not stand the test of time. It's very direct and not
layered for older readers, like the best of Marvel. I did respond to it as a kid, so
I think you are onto something here.
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