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John Byrne
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Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
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Posted: 30 September 2023 at 6:46pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

LINK

More than a decade after the fact a bunch of people who were nowhere near Marvel at the time “gather” to discuss the inner workings of a story, and the personalities involved. Opinions by the truckload, but barely a whisper of historical accuracy.

I’m amused that my complaint that our story was interfered with qualifies me as a “douche”, again in the eyes of someone who was not there.

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Mark McKay
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Posted: 01 October 2023 at 1:04pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

I never read comments on articles, so wouldn’t have caught that at all. 

The only ‘comments” that count in that page are the actual quotes from you and Chris Claremont.

Which I found interesting, in terms of how he viewed things differently than you on what was to come next.
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John Byrne
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Grumpy Old Guy

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Posted: 01 October 2023 at 2:59pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

An indication of how little true collaboration there was. No matter how much time Chris and I spent working out the intricacies of our plots, I came to realize it all came down to him thinking “I’ll script something different!”

A long time ago I read that Alfred Hitchcock worked out his movies in such detail that by the time he got to the actual filming he was bored. Much the same for Chris, I suspect. In the weeks between our plotting and him receiving the pages to script, he’d turned everything over in his mind, often coming up with new scenes. And it was simply not in his nature to wait for a later issue to insert the new stuff. Instead he’d take an existing scene and write it as something else!

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ron bailey
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Posted: 02 October 2023 at 4:15pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

The creative collaborative process is so fascinating in how many ways it can manifest itself ...
Was this something he was formally reserving the right to be able to do, or when called out on it did he even acknowledge it as an issue, and if he did was there an apology to follow? Would he have similar objections if you changed a look of a character or the direction of an action scene at pencilling time? Did other collaborators of his have the same experience with him?
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Brad Hague
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Posted: 03 October 2023 at 2:21am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Huh.
While the article itself is somewhat interesting as it points out some of the differences in the panels that remained, it is the "comments" section that is really absurd.
1.  I have to ultimately agree that what came out as X-Men 137 is the more tragic and compelling story.  Had Jean stayed Phoenix and stayed dead would have made this ultimately the best story ever in comics.
2.  I can see in retrospect exactly what John Byrne's complaints about Claremont are and I can see where the writing contradicts the art.  I can sympathize with how frustrating that must have been.
3.  I am curious, given how sharp the differences ended up being between Mr. Byrne and Mr. Claremont in the 80s, what must have happened to orchestrate the re-teaming up on JLA almost 20 years later?
4.  I find it very interesting that in retrospect, after this "trial of fire" with editorial, that the next two stories, 139-140 with Nightcrawler, Wolverine and half of Alpha Flight and then 141-142, Days of Future Past, two of my all-time favorite stories in comicbookdom.  Frustration for the creator aside, the end results were simply spectacular (again, I get the Kate 'kiss' rather questions whether anything was truly negated).
5.  Was there ever any possible discussion of Claremont leaving and John Byrne staying on X-Men, or was that never discussed?  I have to imagine that editorial could see that it was Byrne who was selling the book more than anything else (although I know that Austin and Orzechowski are among the tops of their fields - please do not consider this a slight towards them in any way).
6.  I DO have to say that John's run on Fantastic Four was simply SO incredible, that I did not have time (at the time) to lament him being gone as I might have otherwise done.  In fact, I also adore Cockrum's work.
7.  I myself have been called a "douche" many times, so perhaps that is what spineless people call those with opinions.  I do not know.  Please know that I do not think our honorable host is anything but a creative genius.
8.  The FIRST thing that Claremont did after our artist extraordinaire left was to script a Cyclops solo story, teaming up with Man-Thing, fighting D'spyre?!?  What?!?  If I were the editor-in-chief that Shooter proclaimed himself to be, I would have looked at that, cut that out and went searching for Byrne to come back and plot his fastest-rising book, if not beg him to take it over completely.  But no.  That clearly did not happen.
9.  One other thought based on those "comments", was everyone in that interview all in the room at the same time?  How uncomfortable was that?
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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 03 October 2023 at 11:29pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

As a delighted fan who snatched up "The Untold Tale..." on the stands, I was a little suspicious of some of the "new" bits. I couldn't really believe that everything presented was actually "as originally planned".

The fishiest bit to me was during the sequence where each X-Man is left alone to prepare for the upcoming battle.

In the story that saw print, Wolverine thinks about Jean and dedicates himself to being there for her.

But in the "Untold" version, instead, Wolverine uses this time to think about Mariko.

I could obviously be wrong, but it seemed ...unlikely to me that that's actually what the original scene was about. I was about 13 at the time and remember suspecting that was Chris Claremont taking this as an opportunity to make a change that came to him after rather than before the originally published story.

That feeling, right or wrong, informed the way I read about the Byrne/Claremont collaboration.
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Jim Petersman
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Posted: 04 October 2023 at 1:49am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

I guess I owe Chris a huge thank you. I'd much rather have Byrne Fantastic Four than more Byrne/Claremont X-Men.
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Vinny Valenti
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Posted: 04 October 2023 at 2:41am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

There's a part of me that wishes I was a fly on the wall of JB and Claremont sitting in a room together in 1983 to do the interview!

Come to think of it....that was probably the first time that I ever "heard" JB's voice in print. And 11-year-old me was pretty cheesed at him when referencing Alpha Flight "Nah, I'd just kill 'em all.". This issue saw print a few months before #12 (I think I bought it along with ALPHA FLIGHT #9 on the same day in December 1983).
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John Byrne
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Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
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Posted: 04 October 2023 at 12:24pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Once again the question arises, what if Chris had left and I had stayed?

Not an option. As I have mentioned before, what I saw as Chris’ excesses had so soured me on the characters that I simply couldn’t continue with them. Took a long time to get past that.

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Michael Penn
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Posted: 04 October 2023 at 12:31pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

>> ...what if Chris had left and I had stayed? <<

What happened to the Shi'ar? Where are The Starjammers? Why are the X-Men fighting their "old" villains? Etc.
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John Byrne
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Grumpy Old Guy

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Posted: 04 October 2023 at 12:38pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

Back in the day, the books had specific mandates. The Avengers had the broadest, taking on just about any kind of menace that came along. The FF were more “science” oriented. And the X-Men, of course, took care of mutant problems.
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John Byrne
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Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
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Posted: 04 October 2023 at 4:02pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

The fishiest bit to me was during the sequence where each X-Man is left alone to prepare for the upcoming battle.

•••

Chris “exceeded his authority” several times in his script. I suppose it would have been foolish to expect otherwise, given his penchant for writing against the art. It’s just a pity no one thought to keep him on track in this “historical document”.

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