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Brian Miller
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Posted: 07 May 2025 at 3:55pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Was Shakespeare really Jim Shooter?
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Steven Brake
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Posted: 07 May 2025 at 5:01pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

JB wrote: Note that in this very thread we’ve seen De Vere’s verse dismissed as “rubbish” when his contemporaries praised him as “the best for comedy”.

SB replied: The former is with regards to the poetry, the latter is with regards to the plays.

And, again, it's worth noting that De Vere being publicly acclaimed as a playwright explodes the argument that he needed to conceal his identity as a playwright.
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Steven Brake
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Posted: 07 May 2025 at 5:06pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Mark Haslett wrote: The biggest enemy of the Stratford story is a careful look at the facts.

SB replied: The Alternative Authorship theories, of whatever stripe, are the Nemesis of the more devout Stratfordians who've undoubtedly over-indulged their imagination, building up myths that positively begged to be torn down.

But however galling it obviously is to Alternative Authorship theorists - of whatever stripe - that William Shakespeare of Stratford-Upon-Avon was the author of the plays ascribed to him in the First Folio (with other plays having been lost, and some, like A Yorkshire Tragedy, tentatively ascribed to him) remains the overwhelming consensus. 


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Steven Brake
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Posted: 07 May 2025 at 5:13pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

@Petter Mhyr Ness:

Yes, I think your summary of the categories of opinions pretty neatly summarises the respective positions regarding Shakespeare's authorship (or the authorship of "Shakespeare", as I suppose Alternative Authorship theorists would phrase it).

Your first point was the consensus for a long time.

Your second point, regarding the role of collaboration, is probably more widely accepted, apart from the most devout Stratfordians. It also knackers the argument that someone other than Will of Stratford-Upon-Avon collaborated on the plays that would end up bearing his name.
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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 07 May 2025 at 6:58pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Brian Miller: Was Shakespeare really Jim Shooter?

**
Ha!

Let’s be honest: whenever we find that truly independent, brilliant minds have looked into the Shakespeare authorship question, they’ve always come away rejecting the Stratford man.

Mark Twain, Sigmund Freud, Henry James, Nathaniel Hawthorne, Orson Welles, Justices Stevens and Ginsburg, even historian David McCullough and the very founders of the Folger Library —all doubted the traditional story. These aren’t casual observers. They’re some of the most influential thinkers in literature, psychology, law, and history.

They had no agenda, no department to protect, no paycheck riding on defending a myth. They simply followed the evidence—and found the Stratford case embarrassingly thin.

Now ask yourself: what equally great, independent intellect has ever taken a serious look at the authorship question and come out firmly in favor of Stratford, without an institutional or financial reason to do so?

Not one.

The only sustained defense comes from English lit professors, often whose careers, reputations, and livelihoods are entangled with the traditional narrative. People like Stanley Wells, James Shapiro, and Jonathan Bate aren't just defending a theory—they’re defending a professional inheritance.

The pattern is clear: when the authorship question is pursued freely—without professional risk or academic pressure—the case for Stratford falls apart.

The silence from great, unaffiliated minds on the pro-Stratford side isn’t an oversight. It’s the sound of a myth collapsing under scrutiny. If the Stratford story were solid, it wouldn’t need a gatekeeping class to prop it up.

One of the most fascinating part of Elizabeth Winkler's book on the subject is her off-the-record discussions with English Lit professors who say, "OF COURSE there's room for doubt of the traditional attribution-- but to come out as a Shakespeare doubter is to decide you will never be published again." Some say there will be a sea-change with the passing of the current "old guard" represented by Sir Stanley Wells of the Shakespeare Birthplace Trust.

We shall see.
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Steven Brake
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Posted: 07 May 2025 at 7:22pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

Mark Haslett wrote: The pattern is clear: when the authorship question is pursued freely—without professional risk or academic pressure—the case for Stratford falls apart.

SB replied: And yet that Will of Stratford-Upon-Avon and the William Shakespeare who was stated to be the author of the plays in the First Folio were one and the same remains the consensus. 

And despite the sharpness of their intellect, the volumes of their evidence and the power of their arguments, Alternative Authorship theorists remain on the fringe.
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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 08 May 2025 at 3:50pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Unbelievable.

Why can't Oxford be Shakespeare? Well, for one thing he died before The Tempest was written.

How do we know? The widely accepted dating of The Tempest to 1611–1613 got its start from Edmond Malone in 1778.

Malone pioneered dating the plays, speculating that The Tempest was written in 1612. Why? In response to a London storm in 1612. How did that work? Shakespeare, he surmises, wanted potential ticket buyers to associate the title with this widely known storm.

He fantasized a marketing ploy that never existed then dated the play based on this fantasy. Brilliant.

Malone's text:


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Steven Brake
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Posted: 08 May 2025 at 5:13pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

The first recorded performance of The Tempest is 1 November 1611.

It's true that we don't know exactly when any of the plays were written, and that isn't true only for Shakespeare, but for pretty much any dramatist of the period.  

But if The Tempest was first performed in 1611, Occam's Razor would seem to suggest that it was written around about the same time.
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Petter Myhr Ness
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Posted: 08 May 2025 at 10:13pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

The dating of plays is indeed problematic, as we have no way of knowing when they were really written. But it does seem odd for a play like The Tempes to have been "laying around" for a few years before finding its way to the theatre.

With Hamlet there are records of it being performed since the late 1580s, meaning that Shakespeare can't originally have written it if the established timeline is to be believed. The evidence here works against traditional dating of the play. 
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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 09 May 2025 at 1:52am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Petter: But it does seem odd for a play like The Tempes to have been "laying around" for a few years before finding its way to the theatre.

**

Perhaps, but what does that say about Shakespeare's "Timon of Athens," "Coriolanus," and "All's Well That Ends Well"? These have no record of being performed at all before they appeared in the First Folio-- full 7 years after Shaksper of Stratford died.

All three "layed around" over 50 years before we get to the first recorded performance date for any of them (1669 for Coriolanus).
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Steven Brake
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Posted: 09 May 2025 at 9:12am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

Petter wrote: With Hamlet there are records of it being performed since the late 1580s, meaning that Shakespeare can't originally have written it if the established timeline is to be believed. The evidence here works against traditional dating of the play. 

SB replied: Hamlet isn't original to Shakespeare. It's an old myth which can be found in Saxo Grammaticus' Gesta Danorum (late 12th/early 13th century), and which had been translated into French by Francois de Belleforest in his Histoires Tragique (1570).

The 1580's Hamlet, often referred to as the "Ur-Hamlet", is sometimes attributed to Thomas Kyd, although some people think that a young Shakespeare may have had a hand in it, and some critics - notably Harold Bloom - arguing that it was an earlier version by him of the later, more mature work.

Mark Haslett wrote: Perhaps, but what does that say about Shakespeare's "Timon of Athens," "Coriolanus," and "All's Well That Ends Well"? These have no record of being performed at all before they appeared in the First Folio-- full 7 years after Shaksper of Stratford died.

All three "layed around" over 50 years before we get to the first recorded performance date for any of them (1669 for Coriolanus).

SB replied: It's true that the dating of the plays isn't always agreed upon. We don't  always know when they were written, only when they were first performed - and sometimes not even the latter. But the inclusion of All's Well That Ends Well, Coriolanus and Timon Of Athens (and others) amongst the other plays attributed to Shakespeare in the First Folio and is strongly a point in their favour that they were written, or co-written, by him.
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Michael Penn
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Posted: 09 May 2025 at 9:46am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

One question is what is the date any of the plays were written? A different one is does the admittedly problematic dating of the plays create a secondary problem in terms of who could've been the author?



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