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Emery Calame
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5773
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| Posted: 11 December 2007 at 3:05pm | IP Logged | 1
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It's too much like having a repentant Stalin decide to change his ways and fight authoritarianism after some lifechanging self examination and then being accepted by the Ukranians as a hero despite the events of the Famine. I don't think saying it happened gradually, like over ten years, helps the central problem very much.
Vader has a very similar problem which is why just after he "changed" he died.
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Stephen Robinson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5835
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| Posted: 11 December 2007 at 3:07pm | IP Logged | 2
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Touche, and I agree. The difference between the two is how they each choose to defend their race.
******************
Magneto was never a defender of his race. Yes, Claremont shoehorned all that in but it's not like there was a Man of Steel event which gave him a blank slate. The character was still the same mass-murdering bastard who appeared in the Lee/Kirby issues and in the Byrne/Claremont run.
To me, this is like comparing Churchill and Hitler and saying the difference between the two is how they choose to defend their race.
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Andrew W. Farago
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 July 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 4067
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| Posted: 11 December 2007 at 3:12pm | IP Logged | 3
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The length of time has never been a problem for me, Andrew, nor have I made that the backbone of my argument against the White Queen in the X-Men here. The backbone of my argument is that I can't see it happening with the White Queen in any scenario ever, be it after a month or after a decade. It's just out of character to me. Bringing up Magneto as headmaster of the New Mutants and her change potentially being tied to that doesn't sway me at all because, again, that's a character change in Magneto that never worked for me either.
I guess we'll just agree to disagree on this one. I think that the change in character was set up pretty convincingly (X-Men comicbook-wise) over a long enough period of time that it only seems like a drastic change if you check out the character in Whedon's X-Men right after you read the Byrne/Claremont issues from 30 years ago. Even then, the White Queen's basic personality hasn't changed all that much, just her allegiances.
I'd argue that the fact that the X-Men themselves have changed enough since the early 1980s that so many former villains have been able to join the team is just as much of an issue as whether or not the White Queen can really reform or not.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132286
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| Posted: 11 December 2007 at 4:10pm | IP Logged | 4
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Magneto is a mass murderer who, according to his own words, wants to
enslave the entire human race. What, in the real world, would you see as
a "less contentious" example of something that parallels his attitudes and
actions?
++
I simply asked that you not use 9/11 as an example because the dialogue
quickly turns into an emotional argument that is easily sidetracked by
sentiment.
••
Whereas the transformation of a mass-murdering mutant-supremist with
a fondness for Nazi paraphernalia into a Jewish freedom fighter is
emotion and sentiment free?
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Mike Bunge
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 June 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 1335
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| Posted: 11 December 2007 at 5:06pm | IP Logged | 5
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I'm not sure if it's already been mentioned, but what happened with the X-Men is that they were able to expand the brand without the limitations of a single character. We've seen multiple Bat-, Super- and Spider-titles in the past and today, but there were limited by the sense that you could only stretch a single character so much and that you didn't want to have too many Bat-, Super- or Spider-titles competing with each other for sales.
The mutant concept, however, allowed there to be X-book after X-book after X-book, with different characters but all still fitting under the X-umbrella. And the market changed to where multiple titles weren't a threat to canibalize the number of casual readers, but became an opportunity to squeeze a little more money out of a devoted, hardcore X-fanbase.
Such a paradigm, of course, is unsustainable.
Mike
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Michael Huber
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 August 2007
Location: United States
Posts: 3338
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| Posted: 11 December 2007 at 5:36pm | IP Logged | 6
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So the "X-umbrella" is multi-lvl marketing, sorta?
Man, I wish there were audio tapes of that! Seriously, I bet it would be quite cool to hear these performances.
Funny, the first thought that entered my mind was " I bet that got old quick"!
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Scott McKeeve
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 11 November 2007
Posts: 835
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| Posted: 11 December 2007 at 6:16pm | IP Logged | 7
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"Whereas the transformation of a mass-murdering mutant-supremist with
a fondness for Nazi paraphernalia into a Jewish freedom fighter is
emotion and sentiment free?"
I wouldn't know. I'm not Jewish but Chris Claremont is. Go ask him.
However, anyone can do the math, JB. One happened over sixty years ago and the other happened a little over six years ago. Enough time has passed that for most people, not all, WWII can be talked about with less emotion and more logic than 9/11.
But, you're smarter than this and you know what point I was making. You're just being obstinate for whatever reason. Well, it's your sandbox and I'm just a guest here.
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Brad Teschner
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 June 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 3933
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| Posted: 11 December 2007 at 11:08pm | IP Logged | 8
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"One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter."
Curious…if mutants, or the X-Men, for that matter, view Magneto as a freedom fighter then why would he need to be redeemed or change his tactics to join their ranks?
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Mikael Bergkvist
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 23 April 2005
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1857
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| Posted: 12 December 2007 at 12:15am | IP Logged | 9
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""One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter." Surely, you can see the simple logic in this statement."
It's a perversion, historically, it should read "one mans guerilla is another mans freedom fighter"
So, no I can't see any logic in that statement whatsoever.
It's just plain sick.
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David Miller
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 3008
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| Posted: 12 December 2007 at 12:20am | IP Logged | 10
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QUOTE:
The reason I liked Chris' run is that it was constantly changing from one
thing to another. |
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I'll say. My first issue of X-Men was issue #200, and I don't think there was a status quo at all until the team made it to Australia. For those last five years of CC's original run, I think
only two of those years featured the X-Men as a superhero team in the
same sense as the Avengers or the JLA, in having a stable membership, a
regular base and a consistent mission.
In my first twelve issues, if a set-up lasted more than one issue, it was because it was a two-part story. Magneto joined the team in 200, Cyclops left the next issue, then there was a crossover with the Beyonder, then a Nightcrawler solo story, then a Wolverine solo story, followed by a two-parter where it appeared the team was based in Francisco, before the X-Men started breaking up with the Hellfire Club and Mutant Massacre issues. It was certainly a while ride for this thirteen year old.
I'm not sure I even knew it was supposed to be a book about a superhero team. I just assumed the book was intended to be superheroes as mercurial soap opera. My favorite of Claremont's latter issues were the ones that dispensed with the team entirely, just exploring the world of mutants. It's interesting to think the core cast had remained largely consistent for more than 100 issues before I came along.
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Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 14812
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| Posted: 12 December 2007 at 12:30am | IP Logged | 11
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However, anyone can do the math, JB. One happened over sixty years ago
and the other happened a little over six years ago. Enough time has passed
that for most people, not all, WWII can be talked about with less emotion
and more logic than 9/11.
---
While WWII may be distant enough to talk about, Nazis and the Holocaust
remain emotionally charged enough that Godwin's law* still applies.
*As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison
involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.
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Scott McKeeve
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 11 November 2007
Posts: 835
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| Posted: 12 December 2007 at 12:34am | IP Logged | 12
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"While WWII may be distant enough to talk about, Nazis and the Holocaust
remain emotionally charged enough that Godwin's law* still applies.
*As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison
involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one. "
Which is exactly why I avoided mentioning them in the first place.
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