I stand corrected, but the intent was nothing but love for you and Al

Understood and appreciated -- thanks.

This is a big point of mine - we're not fighting a nation - we're fighting individual criminals; so why are we using soldiers?  Why aren't we using the FBI, the CIA, etc?

Because it doesn't make big companies a lot of money.

So, how about the ol' "shoe on the other foot" mentality.  Let's say you were in a foreign land, maybe minding your own business, maybe not -- who knows? -- but suddenly you found yourself arrested, thrown into a jail with no access to a lawyer or your family or your consulate, even.  Let's say they were holding you as a political prisoner, accusing you of horrible crimes against the government or the people of a nation.  Let's say they moved you to a facility far away from the land you call home.  Now imagine that it's for years.

Innocent?  Guilty?  Who'd know?  You're not being given a chance to defend yourself against the charges levelled on you.  There's no trial -- there's talk of a "military tribunal" but no movement toward one -- and still you have no access to a lawyer.

And right at the moment of your despair, you hear some bozo say, "I'm glad they're being held there... in the interest of MY national security."

I weep for the country that treats people like that.

I know that you guys - Matt and Geoff - you're intellegent guys but a lot of people hear this sort of jingoistic talk "they hate our freedoms" and they think we're up against Dr Doom or Ming the Merciless or something.  It's a lot more complex than that, and it bothers me when the complexity of the situation is reduced to bad comic book/action movie dialogue.

Of course we aren't fighting Dr. Doom.  Saddam didn't have Doombots.  :P

There are many closed minded people of all political stripes

WHAT???? Wait democrats aren't perfect, news to me...... LOL

I think it's possible, like Geoff says, that one of many reasons the religious fanatics attacked us was that, yes, yes, our cultural differences bother them (just as they bother our own home-bread religious fanatics.  Michael Savage, anyone?) - but if we continue to present it in the words of the propagandists - "they hate our freedoms" - that bothers me.  

I am very aware and completely agree that there is more at play than simple "they hate our freedoms" but I do think it is a real factor.  I think they see our pluralistic society as a threat to the insular world they want.  These are not dumb guys.  The masterminds are eductated and know of "western corruptions" and among those corputions are equality for woman and respect and tolerance for other religions.  So I do think its a factor. 

Now an admission -- I didn't articulate the other reasons because from a prosaic standpoint trading freedoms to protect us from those who hate our freedoms works better.  Doesn't change my point though.  And if you use my point (e.g. don't trade away freedoms) you can use it against Hannity and his lot.

Still think you are of questionable patriotism for your anti-Springsteen stance! :o)  

This is a big point of mine - we're not fighting a nation - we're fighting individual criminals; so why are we using soldiers?  Why aren't we using the FBI, the CIA, etc?

Because it doesn't make big companies a lot of money.

More likely because we don't have a couple of hundred thousand extra CIA and FBI agents sitting around.  I'd be all for covert stealth teams going in and taking care of the problem.  We just have the numbers against us.

ha ha, Scott.

Matt - no, no, we're saying the same thing - I think I'm being fussy today - my particular gripe is that I don't like the phrase "they hate our freedoms".  I think it's bad propaganda.

I think that cultural differences fuel some of the hate for us, but in the same way that the same cultural differences are why psychopaths like Michael Savage suggested making a "list" of "enemies of America" (ie, US Supreme Court Judges) and "getting a gun" as he said on yesterday's show.

A religious nut is a religious nut no matter where they live.

Tom:

Did you read that NY Times article I posted a few pages back?