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Robert Bradley Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 September 2006 Location: United States Posts: 4808
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Posted: 26 September 2014 at 12:50pm | IP Logged | 1
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Work for hire.
Kirby understood work for hire - he and Simon had run their own shop under those terms.
Lee was smart enough and had enough leverage to negotiate a better deal for himself because he was the editor and the public face of Marvel.
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Robert White Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4560
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Posted: 26 September 2014 at 1:09pm | IP Logged | 2
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Why should anyone have to "negotiate" (more like be related to the boss, in Lee's case) to get an ethical deal? I don't CARE if it was work for hire or not. The system was unethical. The corporate world is hollow at its core and deserves to forced to do the right thing.
For the record, I think Lee deserves his fortune and his fame; he was writing the comics, co-creating the comics and doing the leg work with the touring. That said, even Stan "The Man" Lee had to resort to suing Marvel because of their paint-by-numbers corporate BS. It's all institutionalized unethics, and it's high time we stop giving business owners a pass on this behavior.
This is the EXACT same mentality that once justified indentured servitude and slavery. They don't joke about the help as "wage slaves" for nothing. All I have ever seen is social Darwinism when it comes to the relationship between corporate and employee.* This is wrong. We should be better than this by now.
*I've never actually created a new product or concept in my life, so I don't hold myself to the same higher standard that I do true creative types like Kirby...or the guys behind the success of Disney, Steve Jobs and Bill Gates. In my book, those people deserve a hell of a lot more than I do and it's insulting to try to paint them in the same light as a non-creative employee's like myself.
Edited by Robert White on 26 September 2014 at 1:10pm
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Stephen Robinson Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 5835
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Posted: 26 September 2014 at 1:13pm | IP Logged | 3
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Speaking of Kirby specifically, was he well-paid* for the work he did for Marvel in the 1960s?
*Well-paid here would mean the standards of the time and compared to similar professions (publishing industry).
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Andrew W. Farago Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 July 2005 Location: United States Posts: 4067
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Posted: 26 September 2014 at 1:16pm | IP Logged | 4
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Work for hire was a different legal concept prior to 1976, when Kirby's most profitable creations were developed. He was still getting work from Marvel (and DC) during that stretch, so the need to assert ownership or sue his employers (which would have gotten him blacklisted, I'm sure) may not have crossed his mind, or have been in his best interests at the time.
By the 1980s, when he got a sense of just what kind of money was being made off his characters in merchandising, animation, and other things that weren't even a consideration back he was creating all of these characters, plus Marvel wasn't even giving him work for hire jobs any more, or reprint fees on books featuring his artwork. Just saying "he should have known better" doesn't cut it. Who could have conceived of a giant corporation buying Marvel so that they could get their hands on all of Kirby's characters? Or that The Avengers would become a multi-billion dollar film and merchandising juggernaut?
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Kevin Brown Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 May 2005 Location: United States Posts: 8838
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Posted: 26 September 2014 at 1:40pm | IP Logged | 5
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Well, the lawsuit that began with Jack Kirby filing it in the early 90's has ended. It had undergone MANY changes, but the man himself started the fight.
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Paul Simpson Simpson Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 07 April 2009 Location: United States Posts: 939
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Posted: 26 September 2014 at 1:47pm | IP Logged | 6
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One article I read included Spider-Man in the list of characters he created. Why is it in a battle over credit for Kirby that credit has to be taken away from Lee and Ditko. Even if Kirby came up with the name Spider-Man,which both Lee and Ditko said he did, he had nothing to do with the Spider-Man that saw print. Ditko wrote a article that was reprinted in a early issue of Alter Ego.He included a sketch of Kirby's Spider-Man and it was nothing like what eventually saw print.Compared to Ditko's design it was pretty generic. I'm happy the Kirby family got something,but I'm sick of people saying Kirby created Spider-Man. Give the man credit for all the great characters he co-created and created by himself.Just don't take credit away from other creators.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132129
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Posted: 26 September 2014 at 2:04pm | IP Logged | 7
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Who are you to say that someone doesn't have the right to fight for basic ethical treatment?•• Who are you to impose modern "ethical standards" retroactively? If Kirby was so worried about these things, why did he not operate his own company using those guidelines? Apparently, when it was coming OUT of his pocket, the rules of the day were what applied. When it was going INTO his pocket, he wanted the rules changed.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132129
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Posted: 26 September 2014 at 2:06pm | IP Logged | 8
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Speaking of Kirby specifically, was he well-paid* for the work he did for Marvel in the 1960s?*Well-paid here would mean the standards of the time and compared to similar professions (publishing industry). •• Two different things, there. Comics were always the bottom of the barrel. Just before I came into the business, things started to change, but Kirby would have been paid a pittance by the standards of "real" publishing.
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Andrew W. Farago Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 July 2005 Location: United States Posts: 4067
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Posted: 26 September 2014 at 2:16pm | IP Logged | 9
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I'm happy the Kirby family got something,but I'm sick of people saying Kirby created Spider-Man.
Who's saying this? I got the impression that some well-meaning people (or people who had an axe to grind against Marvel) kind of egged Kirby on to the point that Spider-Man got included in his list of creations, but that was kind of a late addition to his grievances, and just about everyone discounts it as something that Kirby really would have stood by. I'm sure you can find a few really hardcore Kirby backers who'll say that he had much to do with Spider-Man, but they've got to be very few and far between at this point.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132129
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Posted: 26 September 2014 at 2:18pm | IP Logged | 10
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I'm happy the Kirby family got something,but I'm sick of people saying Kirby created Spider-Man.Who's saying this? I got the impression that some well-meaning people (or people who had an axe to grind against Marvel) kind of egged Kirby on to the point that Spider-Man got included in his list of creations, but that was kind of a late addition to his grievances, and just about everyone discounts it as something that Kirby really would have stood by. I'm sure you can find a few really hardcore Kirby backers who'll say that he had much to do with Spider-Man, but they've got to be very few and far between at this point. •• Is this the Ask-a-Question-and-Then-Answer-It-Yourself forum?
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Robert White Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4560
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Posted: 26 September 2014 at 2:27pm | IP Logged | 11
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QUOTE:
Who are you to impose modern "ethical standards" retroactively? If Kirby was so worried about these things, why did he not operate his own company using those guidelines? Apparently, when it was coming OUT of his pocket, the rules of the day were what applied. When it was going INTO his pocket, he wanted the rules changed. |
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I don't give people a pass for unethical behavior, regardless of the time period. They knew what they were doing was wrong. Are you telling me that those thugs who basically stole Superman from Seigel and Shuster should get some kind of ethical pass because they lived a scant 75 years ago? Obviously, Kirby should have done the same thing, but I fail to see how this exempts Marvel and DC simply by pointing to someone else and say "Well, they did it too!" That said, are there any claims of Kirby stealing concepts, withholding art, and intimidating talent with high priced lawyers? If not, then we can't compare Kirby's stint as a publisher with the likes of Marvel and DC.
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Andrew W. Farago Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 July 2005 Location: United States Posts: 4067
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Posted: 26 September 2014 at 2:39pm | IP Logged | 12
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Okay, I'll let Mr. Simpson answer the question, then: Who today is actively claiming that Jack Kirby created Spider-Man?
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