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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132135
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Posted: 12 March 2021 at 9:03am | IP Logged | 1
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Many times—SPIDER-WOMAN is a case in point—creative teams were called in to assemble the initial pieces and then turn them over to others to continue the series. This was unfortunate, really, as often cool and even challenging ideas would get lost with the arrival of the new teams. On SPIDER-WOMAN, for instance, it had been Archie Goodwin’s intent that she actually be a spider hyper-evolved by the High Evolutionary.
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Marc Baptiste Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 June 2004 Location: United States Posts: 3655
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Posted: 12 March 2021 at 12:35pm | IP Logged | 2
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JB,
Still intrigued by that original idea for Spider-Woman - though I know some people at Marvel thought it would "creep" out too many fans.
Marc
Edited by Marc Baptiste on 12 March 2021 at 12:37pm
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132135
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Posted: 12 March 2021 at 12:44pm | IP Logged | 3
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As I recall “some people” came down to one writer. The same writer who proposed moving Spider-Woman out of LA because “there aren’t enough tall buildings for her to swing from.” (Spider-Woman flies.)
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Michael Penn Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 April 2006 Location: United States Posts: 12408
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Posted: 12 March 2021 at 1:05pm | IP Logged | 4
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QUOTE:
On SPIDER-WOMAN, for instance, it had been Archie Goodwin’s intent that she actually be a spider hyper-evolved by the High Evolutionary. |
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I love that. Creepy sure... but... ultimately, spiders... people... a common evolutionary ancestor.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132135
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Posted: 12 March 2021 at 1:08pm | IP Logged | 5
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"Creepy" doesn't seem like something Marvel would have been afraid off, once upon a time. Alas, as the company got bigger, it became more mainstream, more ordinary.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132135
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Posted: 12 March 2021 at 1:30pm | IP Logged | 6
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So, finally watched the video, and.......Am I understanding this? She-Hulk got bulky and ugly because she now has "confidence"? Uhm. Sexist at all? (A woman can't be "confident" unless she's butch.) I took a lot of my characterization for Jen from an article I'd read decades before. Racquel Welch was performing live in Vegas, and one night the shoulder straps broke on her gown, exposing her breasts. As she herself described the incident, she did not scramble to cover up, but thought "What the hell! Let 'em look!" That was Jennifer's attitude in a nutshell. After all, if you're seven feet tall and green, you don't exactly blend in!
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Shawn Kane Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 November 2010 Location: United States Posts: 3239
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Posted: 13 March 2021 at 6:51am | IP Logged | 7
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The body positive movement is complicated to me. On one hand, you don't want people to develop eating disorders based on what they perceive society deems as attractive, powerful, etc... But at the same time, I've spent most of my life working out and trying to be in good shape due in part to wanting to look like Captain America or Superman.
Obviously, Superman doesn't need to be a muscular person because of his powers but if he looked more like Seth Rogen than any of the actors who portrayed Superman, no one would buy it. I'm sure it would be lauded n various circles in the media and the Internet. One of She-Hulks last books was praised by some because she wasn't her classic "sexy" self and she suffered from PTSD. I guess, just as I find inspiration in the classic image of the heroes I like, some people gravitated to that version of She-Hulk.
One of the other problems is that some artists from the 90's on quit drawing various body types and only drew jacked-up steroid type men and thin-waisted, big-busted women. I think there was a reaction, especially from Marvel, a few years ago to portray heroes as less attractive to appease some of the more vocal fans.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132135
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Posted: 13 March 2021 at 6:58am | IP Logged | 8
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Stan, Jack and Steve began with "ordinary people" becoming superheroes. Ordinary does not have to mean ugly.
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Richard Stevens Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 May 2004 Location: United States Posts: 1925
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Posted: 13 March 2021 at 7:19am | IP Logged | 9
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I think She-Hulk should be able to do her duties as a lawyer in either form. She doesn't have to dress a certain way, she could be stuck in one form or another for a storyline, but she should be able to interact as an intelligent person – if not an inconspicuous one!
I'm less concerned about them making her super-beefy than making her She-Hulk-SMASHY.
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Conrad Teves Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 January 2014 Location: United States Posts: 2160
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Posted: 13 March 2021 at 8:24am | IP Logged | 10
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The Hulk (a monstrous manifestation of rage) was supposed to be an undesirable form for Banner. I thought the idea that Jen enjoyed being She-Hulk was a great twist and her being beautiful completed the inversion from Banner.
Beautiful People in movies, comics, novels etc. are a common trope because people who look that good in real life are rare. Their mere presence is part of the fantasy. Even the actors who portray them need pro hair, pro light, pro makeup, good costuming and a good cinematographer to look that good, and certainly better than is typically possible in the wild.
All fiction (broadly speaking) being fantasy, what fantasy does Confident Monster Jen serve? I hope no one is going to tell me that part of the current audience sees themselves as monstrous and in need of validation.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132135
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Posted: 13 March 2021 at 8:34am | IP Logged | 11
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I hope no one is going to tell me that part of the current audience sees themselves as monstrous and in need of validation.•• Stan pegged at least part of the audience with the dialog on the cover of AMAZING FANTASY 15. Angst-ridden Peter Parker expresses that o-so-familiar teenage mantra, "I'll show you all one day!" Of course part of the current audience sees themselves as "monstrous and in need of validation". They were always there. The shrinking marketplace has served only to increase their percentage.
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Bob Harvey Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 November 2014 Location: United States Posts: 202
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Posted: 13 March 2021 at 9:00am | IP Logged | 12
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I think you're a bit behind the times, JB. These days, "Batman is gay" is a top comic shop meme.
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