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Vinny Valenti
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Posted: 20 May 2022 at 4:06pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Meh. I was just double-checking #135-136, and thought it was just an unofficial moniker, but not only does "Jean"* refer to herself as Dark Phoenix, but in a (Claremontian-long) mid-battle thought ballon from Wolverine, he refers to her as Dark Phoenix also.

*But really, look at the dialogue - those are not at all Jean's speech patterns - it does provide evidence of her being possessed by another being, and not having gone evil herself.

I remember JB's suggestion waayyyyy back in PHOENIX: THE UNTOLD STORY that she should have gone without them, which I thought was a simple but brilliant idea. Reading them again just now really chafed me.
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Michael Penn
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Posted: 20 May 2022 at 4:08pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Tolkien as a scholar of Old English was thoroughly familiar with Satan as the "Deorc Dryhten" (Dark Lord) and his retinue as the "deorce englas" (dark angels).

In as much as a phoenix is in myth associated fundamentally with the sun and fire, the label "dark" is inapposite. But I think that Mr. Claremont was just riffing in a kind of Stan Lee way: sound over sense. Dark Phoenix? Okay! Life incarnate? Sure!


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Matt Hawes
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Posted: 20 May 2022 at 6:05pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

I should clarify that my question has to do with "dark" being used more as a title for someone or something going corrupt. In other words, to denote a "darker" (as in "evil") version of the character or such.

"Dark Shadows"? Maybe...

"Dark Ages"? I can see where that might apply.

"Dark side of the force" is about a power being corrupted, but it's not an actual title, like "Dark Force". As I mentioned in my first post, what I am asking about is when did someone first put the word "dark" in front of a name to denote that the person or thing was now corrupted?


If one were to say beware of going down that dark alley, that wouldn't really fit with what I am talking about. After all, a dark alley wouldn't necessarily be called "Dark Alley".

Thanks for all the responses, btw.


Edited by Matt Hawes on 20 May 2022 at 6:06pm
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Daniel Gillotte
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Posted: 20 May 2022 at 6:12pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

Maybe it's just because I'm used to it but I think Dark Phoenix is a great and apt descriptor (now whether the Phoenix force/ entity would call itself that is another story) ala a mirror, darkly and whatnot.

Of course, with Joss Whedon's Dark Willow I think it helped propel the usage quote a bit for all kinds of character turns.
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Stéphane Garrelie
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Posted: 20 May 2022 at 8:00pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

In France, at least originaly, Darth Vader was called Dark Vador.
The next one for me was i think Dark Phoenix... but no, since it was translated and she was called Le Phénix noir.

I don't think that sort of thing particularly shocked me. As a fan of westerns, i was used to have lot of movie titles with "de la mort" ("of death") in it. Something that wasn't always in the original title, even if i didn't know it at the time. (and of course Wild Wild West's "Night of...")

Black as the color of death, is more or less a given in our occidental cultures.

Dark as a negative, as are the shadows, is also not surprising.

Liking, and even prefering Jean as Phoenix, a dark version of her costume and the addition of Dark to her name (or noir) was simply part of the show. 

I had more problems with her... not dying... after all it was a topos in comics... and someting natural for a character called Phoenix... but with her not coming back.
 I first accepted Madeline Prior because i thought she was Jean... an amnesic Jean probably, bu yeah: Phoenix.
 When it became clear she was just someone who looked like her, i wasn't fan of that idea. Making her a clone largely fixed the problem. I suppose that there're some coincidences that we accept more easily than others.

What i liked in the Claremont/Byrne Jean was the woman as much as  the heroin, and i was also a fan of her costume and  powers. I loved the bird of fire,

I already enjoyed Jean in the Lee/Kirby X-Men, but there my only real favorite was Cyclops, the others were equaly good. With Claremont/Byrne & Phoenix, Jean became my favorite and Scott a very close second, maybe her equal. We had couple were before was a loner. 



Edited by Stéphane Garrelie on 20 May 2022 at 8:07pm
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Peter Martin
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Posted: 20 May 2022 at 9:39pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

I wonder if the term in some way may stem from dark side of the moon? The term would have been brought very much to the public consciousness in the late 60s with the Apollo missions and then re-enforced by Pink Floyd's usage for the title of their legendary album a few short years later in 1973. That album was still one of the big selling albums in 1974.

Half a decade on, it would have been fresh in the mind.

Now, this isn't quite the same usage as Matt is talking about with corruption, but it is still the light and dark half of the one whole. 
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Eric Jansen
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Posted: 20 May 2022 at 10:37pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

When Superman fights himself in SUPERMAN III, I remember the alternate version looked dingy.  (Now they ALL look dingy!)  If nobody else has already named him, I hereby declare the alternate "Dark Superman"!
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Michael Penn
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Posted: 20 May 2022 at 11:43pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

> I wonder if the term in some way may stem from dark side of the moon? <

The Pink Floyd album was to a significant degree about madness, and the entire storyline did end on the Moon's dark side. But without Mr. Claremont and JB confirming this influence, it's too speculative.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 21 May 2022 at 12:55am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Start with the Blue Area being visible from Earth. (Stan said so!)
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Mike Norris
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Posted: 21 May 2022 at 6:23am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Wait, there's a worse form MAGA?   
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 21 May 2022 at 8:05am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

Wait, there's a worse form MAGA?   

———

Dark MAGA seems to be MAGA but with Laser Eye Memes about Donald Trump taking his revenge on RINOs? *shrug*
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Bill Collins
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Posted: 21 May 2022 at 11:54am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Maybe "Dim" would be a better word?
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