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Topic: A New "Byrne Challenge" (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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John Byrne
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Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
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Posted: 25 September 2005 at 8:56am | IP Logged | 1  

This is something I have grumped about before, in many ways, at many times, but I have never before addressed it as an official "Byrne Challenge" (a phrase which, btw, was coined by someone other than me).

Increasingly over the past couple of decades we have seen late-shipping books become less the exception and more and more the "norm". We have even heard people who should know better saying preposterous things like "fans don't expect the books to ship on schedule". And, of course, we have been handed the Everest-sized mountain of horse manure that takes the form of claims that the late books will be "worth the wait" and that they are late because the talent is "growing roses".

Okay -- he're the Challenge then. And this goes out to fans and retailers everywhere: when someone (company, talent, marketing) tells you a book is going to be late, ask WHY. And if you are told it will be "worth the wait" because the folks producing it are "growing roses" ask if every moment of every working day is actually being devoted to the production of the book(s). That no time is being spent on conventions, personal appearances, running around in search of movie deals, other projects, or anything at all that is not production of the work.

We'll allow the talent to have lives outside their work. We will not demand that they devote any more than a normal, 40 hour work week -- eight hours a day, five days a week -- to these projects, but if the books are late, the Byrne Challenge is WE WANT TO KNOW WHY.

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Darren Taylor
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Posted: 25 September 2005 at 9:25am | IP Logged | 2  

There just isn't enough accountability in comics. That said there also seems to be a lack of proffessional "pride" too!

Reminds me of something Alan [Davis] said in his forum recently, read it in context here: What Alan said.

The quote "When I worked on the Aquaman pencils my primary goal was to get them in quickly because I had been told there were concerns about British artists meeting monthly deadlines-- which were considered equally as important, or even moreso, than the quality of the work. " -Alan Davis

This shows that there was at one time a clear emphisis on the timely handing in of books and also that there was also a clear decision making in the hands of the "talent" that he wasn't going to be adding to the myth. As far as I'm concerned, hat's off on both counts.

[edited as everything ended up in bold...dammit twice]


Edited by Darren Taylor on 25 September 2005 at 9:27am
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John Byrne
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Grumpy Old Guy

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Posted: 25 September 2005 at 9:34am | IP Logged | 3  

I know where Alan is coming from here, but his comment falls into the all-too-common trap of equating timeliness with quality. Even tho I am sure that was not his intent, Alan plays to the mentality that says a book cannot be of high quality and on schedule -- the "growing roses" mentality.

Even without pointing to Jack Kirby, Steve Ditko, Curt Swan, John Buscema, Will Eisner, and a host of other true professionals who never missed a deadline and yet consistently produced work of the highest quality, I would point to my own early work -- all that "stuff" that is "better" -- none of which ever came in so much as a day late. (And much of it was being mailed in from western Canada, which meant it had to be finished at least a week before it was due!)

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Darren Taylor
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Posted: 25 September 2005 at 10:40am | IP Logged | 4  

"Accountabilty" really needs to start in the offices.
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Stéphane Garrelie
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Posted: 25 September 2005 at 10:46am | IP Logged | 5  

Frankly the EIC at marvel being someone that have been fired from valiant by Bob Layton for being late on Ninjak (cause he preffered go to conventions all over the country than work on the book.), I can't see how the situation would improve.

About "growing roses": that's understandable for a graphic novel, but a regular series should be... regular.



Edited by Stéphane Garrelie on 25 September 2005 at 10:48am
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John Byrne
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Posted: 25 September 2005 at 10:47am | IP Logged | 6  

"Accountability" can only start with the freelancers. Editors can rant, rave, fume and fuss as much as they like, but if the freelancers are not turning in the work, the work does not get turned in. Simple as that.

One of the things about living in western Canada, and having to mail the pages into the office, and therefore having to have the books finished about a week before the actual due date (at least) was that it trained me to create my own schedules. I know when the books I am working on are due, but I always aim to finish as much in advance of that date as possible. And, for those too dim to do the math, no, this does not mean I give less time to the books, it means I start sooner. Frankly, anyone who calculates his schedule with the actual due date as the day he plans to finish is just asking for trouble.

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Darren Taylor
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Posted: 25 September 2005 at 10:50am | IP Logged | 7  

Perhaps then it's an "eductation" issue then?

Or alternatively the lead-in maybe needs to be slightly longer for those artists unable to pry themselves away from the due date!
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John Byrne
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Posted: 25 September 2005 at 10:54am | IP Logged | 8  

Stéphane Garrelie: About "growing roses": that's undersandable for a graphic novel, but a regular series should be... regular.

****

You know, it is becoming positively frightening -- not to mention disheartening -- the degree to which this "growing roses" crap has worked its way into the group mentality of fans and pros alike. Score one for Todd McFarlane, I guess. He helped engineer the downfall of the whole industry, his influence might as well continue even as we gasp out our last.

Please, please, please, please, please can we forever divorce from our minds this notion that "growing roses" and producing timely product are separate and mutually incompatible elements? Every time I hear or read that the books should be on time, and no more of this "growing roses" I want to scream. The books should be on time and they should be "roses". The fans deserve (and should demand) no less.

To borrow an analogy from another field, Laurence Olivier is supposed to have once confronted Richard Burton with the question "Do you want to be a great actor, or do you want to be a star?" As the legend has it, Burton's reply was "Both."

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John Byrne
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Posted: 25 September 2005 at 10:57am | IP Logged | 9  

...the lead-in maybe needs to be slightly longer for those artists unable to pry themselves away from the due date!

****

That's basically what I said -- but only the freelancer can do this. It does no good for the editor to lengthen the lead time. The books still have to come out monthly. Make the lead time longer at the editorial level, and you only guarantee the books will be late.

It is the freelancer who must sit down and make a realistic assesment of his ability to produce, and the amount of time such production takes. (None of this "I once did 12 pages in one day, so I will create my schedule on the assumption that 12 pages per day is my normal speed. . "). The freelancer must look at the due date, calculate a reasonable time ahead of the due date (say, a week), and then work out how much time he needs to hit that date. And, most importantly, if he cannot do that 12 times per year, he simply cannot do a monthly book.

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Darren Taylor
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Posted: 25 September 2005 at 11:08am | IP Logged | 10  

I agree John, but then surely if the Editors "hire" with a preference to those who can get the work done. Evident through track record. This might help breed an environment where in order to get work the freelancers would -need- to stick to a schedule. Currently the freelancers can hand in the work late with apparanlty little or no knock on effect to their future employment-potential.
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Stéphane Garrelie
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Posted: 25 September 2005 at 11:13am | IP Logged | 11  

Sadly Burton could have been both and was none. He did some great movies like "Who's afraid of Virginia Woolf" but he never accomplished the promises that his early theater carrer presented. He was mostly the husband of Elisabeth Taylor. Indirectly that's what finally killed him.

I remember a time when "roses" where monthly: Claremont with you or others on Uncanny X-Men, Kirby on Machine Man (I love the Ten-For saga), You on FF, Bill Mantlo and Sal buscema on Rom, Mark Gruenwald on Spiderwoman and Marve Two in One, David Michelinie and Bob Layton with JRjr or Jerry Bingham on Iron Man, Roger Stern and JRjr on Spectacular and after on Amazing Spiderman, frank Miller on Daredevil, Marv Wolfman and George Perez on various series, etc...

From time to time some artists, like Mike Zeck are better when they have more time to work on a particular project. a limited series or a graphic novel. Thats probably true for Barry Windsor Smith or David Mazuchelli too.

 

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Anthony J Lombardi
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Posted: 25 September 2005 at 11:31am | IP Logged | 12  

The lack of professional attitude by a large majority "fans" producing comics today i feel are whats going to lead to the biggest downfall of the industry. Freelancers need to begin acting like they are workiing a true job and not just drawing funny pictures. The editors and check signers and atleast Marvel's EIC need to stop treating the Big name artists who are leading the charge in this offense like they are Superstars instead of working stiffs who should be doing their jobs.
I certainly don't want the creative folk to have to go thru the same crap earlier artists had to go thru they should get their just rewards but they should earn and deserve it as such. 
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