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Guests Byrne Robotics Visitor
Joined: 01 October 2003 Posts: -26
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Posted: 21 March 2008 at 10:19pm | IP Logged | 1
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Dr. Strange is one of the few characters where writers can pretty much do anything they like, and it still is a Dr. Strange story...magic, I guess.
I think that's the problem William. It's too easy to do "anything" with Dr. Strange without realizing who he is, his history, and his function. Magic is not an "anything can happen" concept. Magic, like science has rules (in spite of what Joe Quesada said at Newsarama several years back). In order or Magic in comic books to work, especially in Dr. Strange, it needs to have rules.
Edited by Dan Walsh on 21 March 2008 at 11:38pm
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Guests Byrne Robotics Visitor
Joined: 01 October 2003 Posts: -26
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Posted: 21 March 2008 at 10:43pm | IP Logged | 2
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Historically Dr. Strange's persona/powers can be mapped by writers/eras and events. I won't go into a comprehensive description here. But if you consider the Lee/Ditko years (and the actual time DS was written), magic (black magic) was kind of a mysterious concept that was not taken too seriously by most folks. Only the eclectic elite were privy to this. Dr. Strange being the comic example of this eclectic elite. This has always been one of the key elements to writing/portraying Strange, but even this has evolved somewhat.
Roy Thomas had the book for a while, but I am not convinced he had it long enough to move DS' persona/powers beyond the Lee/Ditko model. With Thomas, there were hints of the "psychadelic 60's" but his tenure was too short.
Under Steve Englehart's run in the 70's (and with his work in Defenders too), DS' took on more of a philosophical bent. He was no longer the "master of black magic", but instead he was truly a "Master of the Mystic Arts". Remember the sub-culture that Englehart (and his contemporaries) had come out of (late 60's and early 70's) and you get a DS who is interested in the occult roots of America, alternate realities (more "What-If?" than other dimensions), and some mystic time travel (Sise-Neg - Genesis). Engelhart had a very significant impact on DS. Unfortunately, he didn't have the opportunity to stay longer on the book. Some of Englehart's concepts, had they been continued, would have proved very interesting !
Claremont's run I am not real familiar with. What I have read is very dark, and as usual, very complex. 'Nuff said !
Later comes Roger Stern, who (imho) had the best run (written) on DS ever ! Why? Because Stern really develops DS as a person, not just as a mystic/sorcerer. And Stern developed DS' supporting cast too (Wong, Clea, Morgana, Sarah Wolfe). The love triangle between Strange, Clea & Morgana was very well done. Clea also found new life under Stern when she left Strange to go lead the rebellion in the Dark Dimension. I won't say more as there are some fascinating spoilers involved. But please note: Stern combined Strange's humanity with some awesome mystical battles too ! The balance was perfect ! If Stern ever comes back to Strange, the character will be properly revived. Stern understands Strange probably better than any other writer !
Like the earlier Claremont run, my understanding of the post-Stern run(s) is a little sketchy. I've read the Strange Tales Volume 2 series and much of the DS Volume 3 series. They were . . . . interesting, but not really cohesive. DS went into too many weird and wild directions, and here is where I would agree with William's opening comments.
Beyond Vol. #3, there is Flight of the Bones and some other stuff that I can't recall right now.
The most recent arcs that left a distinct impression on me, and that I think are the most valuable to understanding Dr. Strange are JMS' Strange and BKV's The Oath. If a non-reader of DS sat down and read both of those, they would have a fairly good grasp on the character, both past and present. (And it would be cheaper than buying Marvel Masterworks #1 ! ) In spite of some people's dislike of JMS or their comments that "Strange" is too much like "The Matrix", I think they have really missed the point. JMS updated DS for modern readers while firmly placing DS in a Tibetan Buddhist mystical culture (which Stan Lee never really explored or properly understood). And BKV's arc was just plain fun while retaining the vital relationship between DS and Wong.
Note: the art of DS also defines the persona/powers of DS by artists/eras/events. But since I am not a penciler, I am not really qualified to explore how all that works. I can only tell you that I really dig Ditko and Colan/Palmer !
Edited by Dan Walsh on 21 March 2008 at 11:00pm
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William Lukash Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 May 2006 Location: United States Posts: 1405
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Posted: 21 March 2008 at 10:53pm | IP Logged | 3
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I think the Ditko stuff is my favorite, too. I think Colon's work is beautiful, but some of the stories are just too odd. Nobody can draw Dormammu like Colon! I liked the Jackson Guice/Geoff Isherwood era,but I can't recall who wrote those issues. I think one reason I have a high opinion of those stories is because Marvel/DC/Image were really putting out some crap, by comparison, at that time.
The reason I brought this up is because Essential Dr. Strange V#3 has a little bit of everything in it. I see the last few issues (I'm not there yet) are by Jim Starlin, who seems like an odd fit. Rudy Nebres draws a few stories, and I'm a fan of his work.
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Guests Byrne Robotics Visitor
Joined: 01 October 2003 Posts: -26
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Posted: 21 March 2008 at 11:08pm | IP Logged | 4
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Cliff Notes/A Crash Course/The Best of the Best on Dr. Strange for a new reader:
Marvel Masterworks Dr. Strange Vol. #1 (Lee/Ditko !)
Essential Defenders #1 (b/w & various authors/artists, notably Englehart, Colan, Sal Buscema)
Dr. Strange: A Separate Reality TPB (Englehart/Brunner)
Dr. Strange vs. Dracula: The Montessi Formula (Englehart/Wolfman/Colan/Palmer and Stern/Green)
Dr. Strange & Dr. Doom: Triumph and Torment (Stern & Mignola, Note: Out of Print, but still worth reading)
Strange (#1-6, JMS & Peterson)
The Oath (#1-5, BKV & Martin)
Edited by Dan Walsh on 21 March 2008 at 11:42pm
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Guests Byrne Robotics Visitor
Joined: 01 October 2003 Posts: -26
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Posted: 21 March 2008 at 11:16pm | IP Logged | 5
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I think the Ditko stuff is my favorite, too. I think Colon's work is beautiful, but some of the stories are just too odd. Nobody can draw Dormammu like Colon! I liked the Jackson Guice/Geoff Isherwood era,but I can't recall who wrote those issues. I think one reason I have a high opinion of those stories is because Marvel/DC/Image were really putting out some crap, by comparison, at that time.
Ditko created (was made for Strange). Colan carried the torch and brought DS to new heights ! Definitely odd, but definitely cool ! Jackson Guice drew Strange's female friends in a most incredible way ! They were attractive, yet "modest". Never seen anything like that in a comic past or present !
The reason I brought this up is because Essential Dr. Strange V#3 has a little bit of everything in it. I see the last few issues (I'm not there yet) are by Jim Starlin, who seems like an odd fit. Rudy Nebres draws a few stories, and I'm a fan of his work.
Glad you brought it up William ! Starlin is an excellent choice for DS because Starlin and Engelhart were not only cohorts in comics, but they were also good friends. They spent a lot of time just hanging out creating cosmic concepts. They have a lot of mutual respect for each other too. If you've ever read the Avengers: Celestial Quest, you'll know what I am talking about ! Nebres is a gifted artist too ! (imho) any artist who takes on DS needs to be good at three things: anatomy, mindscapes and weirdness. Not everyone can achieve this !
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Guests Byrne Robotics Visitor
Joined: 01 October 2003 Posts: -26
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Posted: 21 March 2008 at 11:22pm | IP Logged | 6
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Over the years I have enjoyed Dr. Strange as an interesting guest appearance here or there where he does something cool and then leaves...JB's Galactus story in FF comes to mind.
Joe -
Dr. Strange is always cool when he makes a guest appearance ! He's kind of a rare treasure since he doesn't always have his own monthly. My favorite guest-appearances of DS are FF #243 and #27 (Lee/Kirby). A recent appearance that sent shivers up my spine was in Avengers Dissassembled #502-503 !
Edited by Dan Walsh on 22 March 2008 at 7:56am
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Guests Byrne Robotics Visitor
Joined: 01 October 2003 Posts: -26
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Posted: 21 March 2008 at 11:24pm | IP Logged | 7
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Remember that Pocket Books paperback that reprinted the first several Dr. Strange stories? I read that thing 'til it fell apart. Loved it!
Me too ! Marvel Masterworks #1 reprints all of those issues plus a few more !
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Guests Byrne Robotics Visitor
Joined: 01 October 2003 Posts: -26
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Posted: 21 March 2008 at 11:26pm | IP Logged | 8
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When I was a kid I really enjoyed the Marvel Pocket Novel 'NIGHTMARE' written by William Rotsler. ( hmmm I've been thinking about re-reading all those old novels)
Lars -
Thanks for the suggestion! I'll have to check it out. Haven't read any DS in novel form !
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Jonathan Stover Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 June 2004 Posts: 749
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Posted: 22 March 2008 at 4:52am | IP Logged | 9
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Dr. Strange is my second favourite superhero character after Superman. I, too, was introduced to him by the Pocket Books volumes, and started reading the regular comic at the start of the Stern/Green/Leialoha Dracula arc (a terrific arc, btw).
I think I'm echoing JB when I say that I prefer the magic in Doctor Strange to be fictional, without any ties to 'magic' in our world. Even stuff with Satanic cults seems 'off' in the pages of Dr. Strange, probably because Doctor Strange's Satan should always be Dormammu (sorry, Mephisto!).
And Doctor Strange invoking the Judeo-Christian God seems really, really 'off' in much the same way that Doctor Fate doing so in a Pasko/Simonson story of the 1970's seemed 'off.' It's the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch of comic-book storytelling.
Cheers, Jon
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Guests Byrne Robotics Visitor
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Posted: 22 March 2008 at 7:01am | IP Logged | 10
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I think I'm echoing JB when I say that I prefer the magic in Doctor Strange to be fictional, without any ties to 'magic' in our world.
Jonathan -
I am not sure what JB's views are on this subject. However, here is what I find interesting. When Stephen Strange went to Tibet and met the Ancient One, Strange entered a Tibet that had been ravaged by the cultural revolution of Mao/China. The Tibet that Strange would have encountered (and the magic/mystic arts of Tibet) would have been primarily an exclusive form of mysticism. Why? Because Tibetans and Tibetan Buddhism were trying to thrive amidst a cultural/religious genocide. Therefore, that climate would have a severe xenophobia towards many other world views. Not just communism, not just Christianity, but also any other form of magic or mysticism. In other words to preserve their culture, the Tibetan mystics had a "ghetto mentality". And thus Stephen Strange's tutelage would have been steeped in Tibetan Buddhism, Tantric Hinduism, Bonism and animism. He would not have had experience in (say for example) Haitian Voodism, British Druidism, Egyptian & Sumerian mysticism, or western Witchcraft. Dr. Strange has been written as the "sorcerer supreme", but this doesn't make sense for two reasons. First, it doesn't make sense for the cultural reasons I cited above. Secondly, it doesn't make sense because Marvel has always prided itself on producing comics that are realistic. The characters are human with real problems (Stan Lee's Fantastic Four). The stories are tied to real cities (New York) as opposed to fictional places like Metropolis. So if Dr. Strange was to be portrayed as "realistic" he would not be a sorcerer supreme, but an eastern mystic. And this doesn't mean that the comic needs to be written with exacting reflection of eastern mystic tentets. It can be written fictionally for enjoyment without all of the intricate teachings and spells, etc. There is also a two-fold benefit for doing this. First, instead of a Dr. Strange who doesn't sell well who can say "Hocus Pocus Dormammu disappear", we have a DS who works within the rules of magic. Therefore, DS would have more problems than he does, be more vulnerable, and therefore, more prone to have better plots with significant antagonists. Second, this type of DS validates and improves the other sorcerers/mystics/magicians of the Marvel Universe. The Scarlet Witch, Modred the Mystic, Dr. Druid, Shaman, Agatha Harkness, Brother Voodoo and all the others become more significant players on an equal playing field. These other characters are interesting, but since DS is the "sorcerer supreme" they all look to him as the expert. This creates two problems. First, Dr. Strange becomes boring because he can do anything. And thus he only has guest appearances when needed for something the rest of the MU can't handle. Second, these other characters (with the exception of Wanda) get minimal time in the spotlight. In sum, if DS was written more realistically, he and all the other so-called "magicians" in the MU would have more of a "team concept" portrayal. They would all need each other and be able to help each other more often. And they'd all sell more books !
All that to say, that Stan Lee, although he did a great job on creating DS, Lee did not understand the realistic cultural climate where Strange became a mystic. If Lee understood that climate, he certainly did not portray it. Furthermore, the only person (imho) that's understood this so far is JMS in his mini arc "Strange". People have criticized this for being too much like the "Matrix" (i.e. the references to "The One"). But any comparison is coincidental and misses the point. The underlying idea of "Strange" is that he is learning to understand the similarities and differences between illusion and reality. This is what he would have learned in Tibet. This is what JMS portrayed and I feel the writer hit the nail on the head !
Addendum: For anyone who's ever taken a world religions course or even transitioned from one faith to another, it is easy to recognize how complex religious/faith/magic systems are. Just look at all the different branches of Christianity or Hinduism or Buddhism for a simple example. I mention this because if limits their consideration to Tibetan Buddhism (and it's various forms/denominations) they will quickly see how vastly complex the teachings are. That and the writings are voluminous. Based upon that, it just doesn't make sense to have Dr. Strange as the sorcerer supreme. He's not Superman. He's a man ! And in order for DS to study all the magic rites and mystic teachings of the world (even in the Marvel world) he'd never get out of his Sanctum Sanctorum to fight the "bad guys" ! Notice also that the Ancient One and the Aged Genghis spent most of their lives as hermits in meditation. They had more than enough in their own canon to study, let alone to even begin considering other magics. Now JB made an excellent point in another thread. To paraphrase: because the Ancient One was so ancient, he'd have had time to do all this study. On the one hand, I agree. But on the other, if the Ancient One is truly Asian (Tibetan), then based upon everything I said above, AO's 800 years would have been filled to the brim with his own religion !
Edited by Dan Walsh on 22 March 2008 at 7:24am
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Guests Byrne Robotics Visitor
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Posted: 22 March 2008 at 7:15am | IP Logged | 11
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Jonathan -
I agree with you about the Dormammu/Mephisto comparison. Dormammu is much more interesting! And Mephisto is kind of the "anti-Strange". "Hocus Pocus turn Strange into licorice stick !" M is someone who can do anything and never be defeated. Rather tedious I'd say.
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Guests Byrne Robotics Visitor
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Posted: 22 March 2008 at 7:17am | IP Logged | 12
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And Doctor Strange invoking the Judeo-Christian God seems really, really 'off' in much the same way that Doctor Fate doing so in a Pasko/Simonson story of the 1970's seemed 'off.' It's the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch of comic-book storytelling.
I hear what you are saying, and I expect that this would be the "normal" reaction. Interestingly enough, DS has already invoked the Judeo-Christian God in his first battle with Dracula. See #14 by Englehart/Colan !
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