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William McCormick
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 February 2006
Posts: 3297
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| Posted: 06 September 2006 at 2:53pm | IP Logged | 1
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I still like it. And is the closest to the X-Men I know than anything else out there.
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Rod Collins
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: Australia
Posts: 932
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| Posted: 06 September 2006 at 3:20pm | IP Logged | 2
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JB said: However good the writing may be, this is the kind of stuff that's killed comics -- what Julie Schwartz called "the Archeologists".
I'd have to agree with this. Most fans have the mentality that being "in the know" is kewl, not realising that it alienates potential new readers. It's the same with Morrison's Batman, which uses something from atwenty year old graphic novel as one of its central themes.
Unfortunately the current trend is that "everyone is in the know'' so flashbacks and recaps are hardly ever used. The people that aren't in the know are chastised by the so-called "kewl people" and leave comics behind altogether.
Edited for gramma.
Edited by Rod Collins on 06 September 2006 at 3:21pm
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Robert Last
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 07 February 2006
Posts: 615
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| Posted: 06 September 2006 at 3:36pm | IP Logged | 3
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If I might throw in a point here: Contrary to what some would think, there are still new readers coming into comics. Straight off the top of my head, I have a young lad, maybe 11 to13 years old, who first came in my store about 4 to 6 months ago. He's a big X-Men fan (nothing unusual there) and is voraciously buying everything he can lay his hands on/pester his parents into paying for. In that time, he's gathered a variety of stories going right back to reprints of Giant-size X-Men up! He has at least a broad picture of 30+ years of X-Men history at his fingertips in only a few months. Plus, lord knows how much he's gathered off the net (something I didn't have at his age)
So... yeah, even after that short a time, he's going to understand references to decades old stories. Don't forget how easy it is to get those stories these days, and don't forget the fanatacism of the young fan!
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Brian Hunt
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5178
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| Posted: 06 September 2006 at 4:21pm | IP Logged | 4
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I'm glad that Robert has some new readers at his store because I see none when I go into my LCS. I've been in there weekly for the last four years and can count the number of times I've seen kids that didn't belong to me in there on one hand. That's not a good sign for the industry.
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Brad Krawchuk
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 June 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 5819
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| Posted: 06 September 2006 at 5:28pm | IP Logged | 5
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I can see where you're coming from JB - and I do have quite a bit of X-Men knowledge to help flesh out the characters' histories in Astonishing. Having said that, though, within the comic itself it is explained that Emma captured the X-Men on Kitty's first day, and that she "used to be" evil, so even a newer reader could appreciate the animosity between the two. At least for that sequence, prior knowledge wasn't really required, the story and the dialogue said it all.
Something not so fleshed out, and completely built for those who know the history only, is the revelation of Colossus being alive from Kitty's perspective. That required knowledge of the history between the two characters to fully appreciate - if one didn't have it, it was just a scene. With the history, it's a beautiful, near-tear inducing moment.
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Celeste Mun
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 September 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 7
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| Posted: 06 September 2006 at 5:48pm | IP Logged | 6
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Out of curiousity, how would you stack Emma up age wise to the X-men like Scott and Jean? About the same age? Older? Younger?
When I first saw Emma Frost, in Dark Phoenix, she seemed about the age of Jean Grey or Storm. Shaw seemed older, not as old as Xavier, but older than Scott and Jean.
I always found the original character designs for the Hellfire Club, in the Phoenix Saga, very eye catching and distinctive. A lot of my enjoyment for the story was the visual aspect. Just wanted to say I how much I liked the artwork.
Celeste M.
Edited by Celeste Mun on 06 September 2006 at 5:48pm
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132331
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| Posted: 06 September 2006 at 6:18pm | IP Logged | 7
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When you ask this question, you may not realize how tricky it is, Celeste. Start with your casual reference to Jean and Storm as if they were contemporaries. Back when Chris and Dave were doing X-MEN, in a sequence for which Chris was much scolded, too little, too late, it was established that Ororro's parents were killed in the Suez war, when she was about five years old. That means she was born in 1950, at least relative to the timeframe of the issue in which this revelation took place. So, she was 26 in that issue. Jean, when Phoenix died in 1980, had a birth year of 1954 on her headstone, playing to the "seven year rule" and making her also 26.Problem is, the Suez war was real time, like WW2, while the gravestone was intended as merely a "topical reference", current only to that particular year (1980). If we saw the gravestone today, it should (properly) read 1980 (coincidentally, the original year of Phoenix's death!) Next year it should read 1981. That was the way the seven year rule was supposed to work. People have messed with the seven year rule, of course, saying it was fourteen years, or twenty years. Who knows any more --- but unfortunately, for Storm to have been 5 during Suez, she still has to have been born in 1950, meaning she is currently my age, 56. Not that anyone pays attention to things like this. Chris had (and has) a habit -- a bad one, imho -- of writing things in "real time", not matter what anyone else is doing. Which means what I thought when the character was created really has little impact on how old Emma is now. Storm was "older" than Jean, by several years, and I imagined Emma to be older than Storm. A good ten years older than Cyclops, I would have said. Oh -- and Xavier's age? Oh, what a kettle of worms lies there!! When he was first introduced, he was in his twenties, very close to a contemporary with his students. (Which reduced considerably the ewwwww factor of him being in love with Jean!) But it didn't take too long before we were flashing back to his wartime adventures in Korea (so he was still younger than Reed Richards), which was in the early 1950s, and which added eighteen or twenty years to his age. (Confession time, now -- the visual designs of the Hellfire Club come from a fusion of that previously mentioned "Avengers" episode, and the 1975 filmed version of "The Story of O". Ahem.)
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Daniel Kendrick
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3020
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| Posted: 06 September 2006 at 6:39pm | IP Logged | 8
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JB: Has anyone asked for a commission involving the Hellfire Club? or even the original Brotherhood of (evil) Mutants?
edit: correct spelling, I need a new keyboard!
Edited by Daniel Kendrick on 06 September 2006 at 6:40pm
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Monte Gruhlke
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Joined: 03 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3303
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| Posted: 06 September 2006 at 9:30pm | IP Logged | 9
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Ah, but an issue that has been brought up time and time again in various X-Books, Emma has had so much plastic surgery done, she could easily be 125 and still look like she's 27. And Cyclops never ages, since he's just a robot... OOPS! ;-)
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Celeste Mun
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 September 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 7
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| Posted: 07 September 2006 at 2:05am | IP Logged | 10
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I'm not sure I understand the "Seven Year Rule" Could someone elaborate? Using the Seven Year Rule, how would the X-men and the Hellfire Club stack up, age wise, today? Right now, I think, the original X-men like Beast are portrayed as people in their 30s.
Celeste Mun
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Robert Last
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 07 February 2006
Posts: 615
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| Posted: 07 September 2006 at 3:43am | IP Logged | 11
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Brian Hunt said:
"I'm Glad Robert has some new readers at his store..."
Sorry Brian, should have clarified. I'm In the UK, which although much smaller, has a much healthier comics distribution. The news stands are full of funny animal/humour titles for kids from 3-8, then there's action/adventure/war comics for those 9 to 99. Comics appear to be way easier to get over here, and we still have a strong tradition of reading them. I have my share of 25 years old+ customers, but the main age is probably somewhere in the late teens.
There's nothing wrong with a dedicated comic shop IMO, but it's bloody stupid not to have some form of national distribution for newstands as well.
My apologies for hijacking the thread. Does it help if I say I've always dreamed of being one of Emma Frost's "victims?"
ehhh.... I'll get my coat..
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William McCormick
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 February 2006
Posts: 3297
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| Posted: 07 September 2006 at 6:44am | IP Logged | 12
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I'd have to agree with this. Most fans have the mentality that being "in the know" is kewl, not realising that it alienates potential new readers. It's the same with Morrison's Batman, which uses something from atwenty year old graphic novel as one of its central themes.
****************
So we should just forget everything that has gone before? I realize some creators use the past too much, but there isn't one creator alive today who hasn't used a past story as a jumping off point. And I fail to see how you would need any knowledge of the previous X-men issues to enjoy what Mr. Whedon is doing. He just throws little things in there to show his love for the history of the characters.
And if anything, I would think it would make new readers go out and try to find the old issues that the little flashbacks were from and read them.
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Topic Closed)
