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John Byrne
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Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132394
Posted: 07 September 2006 at 7:06am | IP Logged | 1  

Has anyone asked for a commission involving the
Hellfire Club? or even the original Brotherhood of
(evil) Mutants?

***

Not so far.
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John Byrne
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Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
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Posted: 07 September 2006 at 7:18am | IP Logged | 2  

I'm not sure I understand the "Seven Year Rule"  Could someone elaborate?

***

Some fans are always trying to figure out how much time elapses in these stories, and how many years have gone by since thus-and-such happened. Once upon a time, a reference to "months ago" was sufficient to cover any point in a character's career, but as the marketplace shrank the number of ARFs (Anal Retentive Fans) increased proportionately.

Around the time I joined Marvel, a general agreement was adopted, that it was "seven years" since the FF went up in their rocket (this was around 1975), and it would always be "seven years". No matter how much time seemed to pass "on camera", the Marvel Universe would always exist in this bubble that never went more than seven years past the FF's original launch. So, in 1975, this meant they went up in 1968. In 1990, this would mean they went up in 1983. Today, the launch would have been in 1999.

This worked fine, as it acknowledged, for those who needed such, that time had, indeed, passed, but it kept that time managable. Johnny Storm had been around fifteen when the FF went up. Seven years later would make him 22 -- which seemed to fit nicely with his apparent age. Ditto Peter Parker, the X-Men, etc. And, of course, if you were to take all the published adventures of the FF (even right up to this year) and actually clock all the elapsed time seen in the books, you'd end up with quite a bit less that seven years.

Unfortunately, there was one fatal flaw in the Seven Year Rule -- it assumed everyone would be professional, and play along. But, of course, there are always flies in the ointment. It didn't take too long before people were trying to slip in "real time" references, and often they succeeded. Then there were the ARFs who most determinedly didn't get it and turned the Seven Year Rule into a sliding scale. "Well, if it was seven years in 1975, by 1985 it must have been..." Thus we end up with a Peter Parker who's older than Superman.

One of the most remarkable examples of this relentless dim-wittedness was in an issue of the old COMIC READER fanzine, in which a writer said yes, okay, he could accept that the FF's whole history fit into seven years -- but he had a hard time believing the current stories (circa 1977) were taking place in 1968!

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Jeff Lommel
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Posted: 07 September 2006 at 7:31am | IP Logged | 3  

"months ago" or "some time ago" always work for me.  No reason to lock things down like they seem to enjoy doing now.
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John Byrne
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Grumpy Old Guy

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Posted: 07 September 2006 at 7:40am | IP Logged | 4  

Somewhere along the way, starting around the time that fans-turned-pro actually started to outnumber the old-timers, all of the traditional conventions of the form began to fray around the edges. One of the first was the avoidance of real-time references, coupled with the understanding that such references, when they did occur, were meant to be taken as "topical" and not a benchmark. The FF met the President. He looked like Richard Nixon, because at that time Richard Nixon was President. That should not be taken as confirmation that the story took place during Nixon's time in office. Only that there was a President, and the FF met him.

There are some things that are bound to real time. Captain America is a product of WW2. The Invaders fought in WW2. So did Nick Fury. Various characters are linked to the past, but with some minor exceptions, it is usually easy to simply avoid mentioning that link (don't keep telling the readers that Reed and Ben fought in WW2), or worked around (when I was writing IRON MAN, I retold his origin without mentioning Vietnam). Sometimes, as with Cap's suspended animation, or Fury's Infinity Formula, there can even be a contextual explanation. (Under the Seven Year Rule, Cap came out of the ice sometime during W's first administration. Think about that!)

But in 99.999% of the cases, a simple, vague, "months ago" or "last time we saw..." covers the bases as much as anyone needs them covered. Or should need them covered, anyway. If they are reading these things for the right reasons.

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Rene Ritchie
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Joined: 17 April 2006
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Posted: 07 September 2006 at 8:45am | IP Logged | 5  

JB- When you use the term "fans turned pro" how is that distinct from previous creators who read and enjoyed comics in their youth?

The 7 year rule makes a lot of sense.
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Rene Ritchie
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Posted: 07 September 2006 at 8:52am | IP Logged | 6  

"Unfortunately, however clever these lines may be, they depend on readers being familiar with stories and issues that were published twenty six years ago. When the first issue of X-MEN (not yet UNCANNY) was published in 1964, most superhero comics hadn't even been around for 26 years. Only SUPERMAN made it onto that list -- and just barely."

Is it possible to write to several levels, or to include (what should be) unobtrusive "easter eggs" for long term readers?

The Dark Phoenix Saga was my first real introduction to comics, so that line made a lot of sense to me. However, a friend of mine is reading Astonishing as her first introduction to X-Men, and she just took the line to mean Emma was unethical.
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Tshombe Hamilton
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Posted: 07 September 2006 at 2:36pm | IP Logged | 7  

the beautiful thing about the whole Hellfire Club was the subpolts....as far back as X-Men #110 when Warhawk infiltrates the mansion. It isn't revealed until #129 that it was the Hellfire Club behind it.

Comics have lost that. To let future stories grow via subplots as opposed to just throwing it at you now!

 

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Jeff Lommel
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Posted: 07 September 2006 at 2:46pm | IP Logged | 8  

Well now they have to package everything up into neat little 4-6 part segments for the trade.  Imagine the outcry if the story wasn't all wrapped up in that trade!  Why, they're FORCING me to buy the next trade (that I was going to buy anyway)!
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John Byrne
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Posted: 07 September 2006 at 2:49pm | IP Logged | 9  

the beautiful thing about the whole Hellfire Club was the subpolts....as far back as X-Men #110 when Warhawk infiltrates the mansion. It isn't revealed until #129 that it was the Hellfire Club behind it.

****

There's a reason for that. And, you know, I simply have to add ;-)

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Michael Penn
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Joined: 12 April 2006
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Posted: 07 September 2006 at 2:49pm | IP Logged | 10  

But in 99.999% of the cases, a simple, vague, "months ago" or "last time we saw..." covers the bases as much as anyone needs them covered. Or should need them covered, anyway. If they are reading these things for the right reasons.

****

Indeed. Between X-MEN 98 and X-MEN 143, there were three Christmases. Who cares?!?

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John Byrne
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Grumpy Old Guy

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Posted: 07 September 2006 at 2:51pm | IP Logged | 11  

Imagine the outcry if the story wasn't all wrapped up in that trade! 

****

As I recall, there was a Spider-Man trade a few years back that ended on a cliffhanger. The writer of the "collected" story didn't write the next issue.

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Gene Kendall
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Posted: 07 September 2006 at 2:55pm | IP Logged | 12  

When Marvel briefly published "Ultimate Marvel Magazine", reprinting various comics from the Ultimate line, the final issue had three issues -- two of them ended on cliffhangers.
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